New Challenges!!!
Greensquared
Registered Users Posts: 2,115 Major grins
Ok all, here's your chance to SPEAK UP.
I'm a member of an advisory panel for the new challenges. Well, we want to hear your input! Any clever ideas for a fresh new contest? What do you feel...should we move totally away from the LPS format, or take the favorite parts and integrate them? What do you want most out of the challenges? Growth, tutorials, prizes, feedback, hardcore critiques? Do you want the dual themes back or maybe a single theme with a requirement (such as "must be portrait", "shot in black and white", "must utilize the rule of thirds" or whatever)? Or is a single simple theme what will help you grow the most? This contest is to be community driven and we ARE listening.
However, rather than hearing complaints about what has passed, we want to hear constructive ideas that we can bounce around. We hope to get everything pinned down as soon as possible to get this thing rolling - so please, let those ideas fly! :ear
I'm a member of an advisory panel for the new challenges. Well, we want to hear your input! Any clever ideas for a fresh new contest? What do you feel...should we move totally away from the LPS format, or take the favorite parts and integrate them? What do you want most out of the challenges? Growth, tutorials, prizes, feedback, hardcore critiques? Do you want the dual themes back or maybe a single theme with a requirement (such as "must be portrait", "shot in black and white", "must utilize the rule of thirds" or whatever)? Or is a single simple theme what will help you grow the most? This contest is to be community driven and we ARE listening.
However, rather than hearing complaints about what has passed, we want to hear constructive ideas that we can bounce around. We hope to get everything pinned down as soon as possible to get this thing rolling - so please, let those ideas fly! :ear
Emily
Psalm 62:5-6
0
Comments
Yes.
My favorite parts of LPS were:
- dual themes
- feedback
I think those two things would be great in the challenges. Prizes are cool too, but maybe keep them small like under $200 money value (or something) so people don't get too frantic.I enjoyed the dual themes very much and would not mind a single theme, but I don't think I would like the guidance to be too specific or constrained. Enough parameters to keep it challenging and force me to try new things, but not so much that I can't fold my style into them.
Just help keep me shooting and learning!
I liked it when the prize was $40 credit at SM.
I also like the dual themes. I think it helps to generate more entries. Maybe more rounds where PS is either not used or kept to a minimum. This helps the shooter to really try to get the best possible picture right out of the camera.
Eric
Eric
It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
http://photosbyeric.smugmug.com
My images | My blog | My free course
Even though I use quite a bit of photo shop, I think having regular rounds and minimal PS rounds is a good idea. Dual themes are cool too. Though having a create theme like "70's Song Title" or something of that nature would be fun too.
Prizes should be not too big, but not too small either
pyroPrints.com/5819572 The Photo Section
I'm pleased that the essential part played by our community members in the success of contests is being recognised. I have said on several occasions that DGrin can invite and guide from above, but can only really live in the commitment of the membership, and this is something which is freely given or withheld, it cannot be ordered or expected. It depends, however, to a large extent on the people skills of those above.
Similarly, the kind of participation you are talking about in your post above cannot be ordered or expected, but must be earned.
I would like to see monthly contests, ie an entire contest contained within one month, from announcement of the theme to final results. I think this would make for a less intense but still exciting pace and generate more participation (I have read many regrets from people who would have liked to enter LPS but couldn't manage the brief "windows").
I would like to see a judges' and a popular vote prize each month, a money prize from the judges and an "in kind" prize from the popular vote.
I very much liked the dual themes of LPS, and I think they were to a large extent responsible for the level of motivation of entrants (who continue to comment positively on them).
The rules must be simple and unambiguous, among which I suggest:
- an entry must be 100% the work of the entrant, no stock or uplifted material not the entrant's original work is allowed to appear in the entry
- an entry must be 100'% produced in the first instance by the entrant using a camera, no material originally produced by non-photographic and graphic means is allowed to appear in the entry
- an entry must be 100% generated within the stipulated time frame of the contest, and EXIF data must accompany the entry to verify this, no material originally generated prior to the beginning date of the contest is allowed to appear in the entry
- any style chosen by the entrant is allowed for an entry, including composites, and any level of post processing and/or manipulation is allowed, as long as the entry is 100% in compliance with the above rules
- only registered members of DGrin are eligible to enter a contest
- only registered members of DGrin with voting rights membership (automatically granted after logging 30 posts in DGrin forums) are eligible to vote in contests
- no correspondence whatsoever whether from entrants or others will be entered into by the administrators or judges of the contest either during the contest or afterwards. The published results of the contest will be final. Persons wishing to get help with or to comment on any aspect of the contest will be able to do so in the public thread provided for this
- the entry thread is for entries only. Each entry must be titled and must bear the entrant’s identification, and be accompanied by EXIF data for the entry. However, no other comment by the entrant or other person will be accepted in the entry thread
- criticism, feedback, comments and problems about the entries in a contest can be posted in forums begun by any registered member of DGrin
- normal forum etiquette, decorum and respect rules apply to these forums as to all others
I'm very much looking forward to enjoying once again in the new contests the great spirit and high quality of work which made LPS such an outstanding experience for myself and so many others.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
I think the LPS format was quite good and seemed to work well. I am not sure whether I think a monthly format is better than fortnightly, but am open to either.
Prizes, I must admit, are quite an incentive (at least for me) and I enjoyed the top 10 format in LPS, rather than just picking a winner or top three. It meant you could assess your performance and growth and feel like you were going somewhere, even without coming close to winning.
Thanks for all the effort and I hope to see this get off the ground soon
My Blog
Jethro Kingston Photography
Use this coupon code to get $5 off when joining smugmug: eO3NU7AM85scE
Go back to the old format. You still had some complaining, but nothing like LPS.
I prefer the single theme challenge. With the double theme, it leads to to much interpretation.
Keep it simple, more challenges with minimum/basic PS. What i mean by that is no composites.
I guess someone that can get the shot in camera shouldn't be penalized because their PS skills aren't
as good as someone else's, or because they can't afford the latest/greatest software.
I'd also like to see the size restraint of 800 pixels on the long be widened to 1024.
I have a 20 inch monitor running at 1600 x 1000 (something like that) and these shots look like postage stamps.
Prizes. Although it's nice to play for something, it's not needed. They just bring out the complaint's.
That's my thoughts on it.
Basking in the shadows of yesterday's triumphs'.
I liked the dual themes, they seemed to bring about fairly diverse interpretations and very different entries.
I think prizes are a great way to motivate and reward but I'm not sure that it is necessary to have big prizes. I for one am more interested in challenging myself to become a better photographer than in prizes. So a SmugMug gift card or the like would be plenty.
I would like to see an absolute "no bitching and/or moaning" rule. This would ensure that the contest would be about growing your skills and enjoying the process and not about sour grapes.
I can't wait!!!!!
Still, I do have an opinion. The best thing about these contests is growth. People who take them seriously are challenged to make the best possible entries. When they do that, they win (even if they don't win the contest.)
For those who remember Ginger, there was someone who really got a huge amount from these contests. She lived and breathed them and produced some really wonderful shots as a result. She paid really careful attention to the feedback she got from the critique forums (in fact, she often dominated these forums with her constant posts.)
The format of the Whipping Post is great, but carefully focused and its rules discourage some kinds of feedback and responses. For example, I can't change my entry due to the feedback. Or evolve it through different post techniques proposed as feedback. And feedback cannot be in the form of proposed edits.
By contrast, the old contests allowed all of this. They were a great place to learn how to please the crowd. I didn't follow LPS, but it certainly produced some great images and so I think it must have fostered a lot of growth as well.
Let's see. I like open themes. Best photo of the last few weeks. Period. I like assignments. Go out and shoot an occupational portrait or a bird. I like contests which one can win by bending the rules a little. Puns on the theme and such (often winners on Fred Miranda.) So I'd like to see all of these within a given year.
I like the focus of an actual contest with voting where one has to pick a single entry. I think this works especially well with feedback to create community and foster photographic growth.
I don't particularly like big monetary prizes or sour grapes (might be related.) If there are judges to pick semifinalists, I think they should rotate widely, possibly always chosen from the group of previous winners and not always including a dgrin moderator. This might help prevent the sense of conspiracy some feel. More importantly, I hope it would encourage a wider spectrum of styles.
What about a monthly juried show with the previous month's winners as jury? Just a thought. Something we haven't tried.
I would like to see them begin and end in a short time period. A month has been suggested and that sounds good.
Maybe include a couple of different categories, which can be different every month. Something like b&w only, limited or no ps, digital manipulation or really anything.
I'm sure with all the great suggestions there will be a way to satisfy just about everyone.
Sherry
ps: Emily--I noticed you are from Cartersville, GA. I have a niece who teaches school there. It seems to be a nice area.:D
I'm fine with composites, too, but I think stricter rules for them would be a good idea (i.e., all parts shot within the contest window) to minimize the inevitable arguments. I'm not particularly likely to submit or vote for composites, but I'm not going to rule it out either.
I've been reasonably happy with the judging from the LPS and the pre-LPS challenges. I would like the choices when voting to not have names associated with the photographs. I realize true anonymity is both impossible and impractical, but when I'm voting I don't want to be reminded of who shot what even if in many cases it's entirely obvious.
Yes, but see my suggestions above. More rules/stricter rules opens the door to infinite argument and chronic discontent. Embrace post processing, manipulation and compositing as being integral with photography. But allow it in DGrin contests only when it complies with my first four rules.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
At some point those shots became less photographs and more digital works of art. Which is great but then we are getting away from the point of a photographic contests.
I'm not one to complain so I will work with what ever rules Dgrin sets up and try to better my photographic ability by participating in the new challenges.
just my humble .02 not trying to start anything or stir the proverbial pot,
Eric
It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
http://photosbyeric.smugmug.com
I also think that the smaller prizes are great, and smugmug accounts are a great prize to have.
www.brandonperron.com
I understand what you are saying, Eric (and also BPerron). However, I do not think that because extensive post processing, manipulation or compositing is used in an image that the image is consequently superior in any way to a shot straight out of the camera. Of the photos posted in DGrin that have been responded to with the biggest WOWS!! most of them have had only "normal" to no post processing etc.
The best philosophy I believe is to be inclusive. This indeed is the only guarantee of a level playing field, where the image is competing on its own terms and its terms are basically as valid as any others. (Always keeping in mind my first four suggested rules.)
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Stricter rules can actually prevent arguing and discontent. How? By eliminating ambiguity. The contest lawyers will look for any area where there's some abiguity and attempt to exploit it. People tend not to argue when it's clear that they'll lose.
Your suggested rules are actually both pretty reasonable and more strict than the previous set of rules for composites. As I recall, initially for LPS the "vast majority" of the image had to be shot within the contest window (later changed to all of the image), and that was about it.
I still disagree about no-Photoshop challenges. There is no reason for each challenge to have the same set of rules regarding post-processing, and I personally think that the variation makes it more interesting.
Photoshop is pretty much part of professional (as in making money) photography, I don't think it is realistic to ban it in whatever contest we end up with.
The LPS rules did not state directly, what is allowed. Instead, the answer was buried in the discussion thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=501268&postcount=16), and only linked to from the rules page. Putting it right there in the rules would probably have cut down the questions/complaints/PMs by at least half.
Also, why not have a kind of entry form, where the contestants can state, if PS was involved in making the image? I think what most people objected against were the cases where it was not clear, whether or not there was any manipulation involved.
I was quite happy with the LPS format, just enforce the fine print: "all decisions are final". No PMs, no discussion, or discussion in public. But what is there to discuss? The rules are the rules, don't like them, don't play.
And finally, on the public voting: I'm not quite sure how to deal with that, there will always be a way to manipulate it, if you was want it hard enough and have enough time. So the easiest would probably be to make the public choice awards something smaller, and let the judges figure out the big prices. If you need to have a certain post count to vote, I'll never get there...
Themes: Varies each month. There are 4 weeks so how about 1 dual theme for 2 weeks and 1 single theme for 2 weeks.
June
Dgrin Challenge01: Old or New June 1st - 15th
Dgrin Challenge02: B&W June 15th - 29th
July
Dgrin Challenge03: Vapor or Liquid June 29th - July 13th
Dgrin Challenge04: Straight out of Camera June 13th - July 27th
These can be open or very direct- I think varying them will both keep people interested and challenged.
Rules: (just the adjustments I would like to see)
Post work is unlimited unless specifically limited in a specific challenge (though I do not do a lot of PP this will eliminate the complaints about it)
EXIF for original images must be posted- if a composite EXIF for each image must be posted (whether all images need to be shot in the time frame or not is up to the mods- but all original images should be posted with EXIF)
Judging:
Rotates throughout a list of those willing to judge with the stipulation of commenting on EVERY ENTRY not just the top ten by a select group chosen by the mods. This will give everyone a wider perspective than what was done before as well as every contestant at least some feedback. The mods should just have to be facilitators- you have enough going on
Winning Photos go into a year end challenge for Challenge Photo of the Year.
Prizes:
They are necessary to keep the entry pool large- just the way it is
DO NOT DO CASH- something about it corrupts peoples minds
smugmug accounts
photoflot frames
photoshop cs3
lightroom
Wifi memory cards
smugmug store credits
bags
shootout admission
muench workshops
other workshops
free rental from borrowlenses.com
These are just a few possible prizes that could be gathered with a little coaxing. There needs to be some flexibility in this as well. Say grand prize for one contest is cs3. Winner already has it- he should have an option to choose another prize of similar value- whether it is pro account for x years or smugmug money- photoflot frame.
Additional Rule:
No PMs to the mods or judges- they will not be responded too and multiple attempts will be considered harassment resulting in loss of PM capability and possibly banning from dgrin.
Looking forward to it beginning- of course if you do a Challenge Photo of the Year it will need an asterisk since this has been year shortened by a moderator induced lockout.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
I respectfully disagree...I do feel composites can be superior no matter what rules you lay out. With a composite you can take the best of many photos and combine them together to make a photo that would have other wise been impossible and may not have been what the photographer was originally capturing.
I guess I come from the school of thought, that I believe a photograph is suppose to be a moment in time of certain elements that were apparent in that exact time. When you get into composites ,whether they were captured by the photographer or not, it is not the original image that was captured, so yes composites are superior in the regards that you can take the best of many elements and combine them into something that was not possible to be captured.
I think this really goes to show in this thread alone, that the composite vs. single exposure (with PP)...that there is a huge demand that people are unhappy with the composites and single images being compared to each other, that something needs to be figured out because many, many people are going to be unhappy and I think that will detour people from participating and you will have a lot of complaints. Having these separate or something of the sort, I think will solve a whole bunch of complaining and issues in general. Which I believe is the point of getting rid of LPS and trying to find a way to do something that involves less complaining, and this is one way I think that can be achieved.
note* I will no longer defend my stance, I believe I have stated my point, I do not want to turn this into a debate thread.
www.brandonperron.com
I agree with a lot that you have to say...
I do believe that PP is part of the professional realm of being a photographer this is why I do not think that PP should be banned from work, but in that same thought most photographers do not create composites for most of their work and that is where I think a lot of people have issues with it.
I also agree that most people were bummed when they found out that entries were composites when they were under the impression the photo was a single image. So I agree that it should be clear and presented with the photo, I love that idea.
www.brandonperron.com
The LPS format gave some great photographers a chance to shine in the semi-final rounds, but it left a lot of photographers with no contest to participate in for those weeks. I disliked waiting around for the next round to start and would've preferred a chance to be shooting for the next contest.
Overlapping month-long contest periods? I like that idea for two reasons. First, sometimes people struggle with a particular challenge them, and two at a time would alleviate that. (Although the dual themed challenges also do this.) Second, I personally tend to need more time to think about the challenges.
30, I think, is very easily achievable.
Having to have a "Voting Member" level of membership to be eligible to vote in a contest safeguards against the opportunistic recruitment of casual registrations solely to increase the chances of winning of a particular entrant.
My suggestion that the judges prize be monetary and the popular vote prize "in kind" is also to discourage this kind of hustling, while giving entrants the chance of a very desirable prize.
It also answers the need for people to respond according to their preference for technique and style, if they wish. Judges might, for example and in a particular contest, feel that a composite most successfully and memorably captures the theme, while voters might prefer a more " straight" entry. In other words, it enhances the possibility of inclusiveness, which I have already referred to and which I think is a sign of maturity in a present-day photography contest. I repeat, there is nothing in the nature of a shot straight from the camera or at the other extreme of a highly elaborated image which guarantees it will be chosen as best. Technique and style are only two of many factors which make a photograph successful and memorable - a winner!
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
#1 - it clutters up the thread and makes it extremely difficult to sort out the more important thought processes, ideas and suggestions.
and #2 - The new challenges will almost certainly involve an "Anything goes except when stated" type of rule. In other words, we won't be asked to stifle our creativity with limitations for the most part, but occassionally will have a "No PS" challenge, or "No composites" challenge to ensure that no one is repeatedly falling into a rut by relying on any one particular "trick".
On a very personal note...learning how to composite is an awesome "trick" to have in your bag. My very first LPS entry had no pp whatsoever other than a small crop. My last entry was a composite of about 8 images. I learned Photoshop and compositing purely due to and through LPS. I'm still by no means an expert with PS, but I do consider that tremendous growth and would never want to stifle another photographer in their desire to work on their skills in that area. I also realize that my first image was far more popular than my last!
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Rounds last for a total of 3 weeks. Two weeks of shooting and then one week allowed for judging and feedback.<o:p></o:p>
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Since our main goals are growth, input/opinions may be sought during the shooting period. Feedback from each other is STRONGLY encouraged during the judging week following the entry deadline.<o:p></o:p>
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At the end of the shooting period, there will be two judges, consisting of the previous round winner and one other randomly selected person (might be a moderator, any one of you or someone totally outside the group). These judges will each select their top ten, in no particular order. They are required to give brief feedback on each of their selected finalists.<o:p></o:p>
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Selected finalists (up to 20) then go to a public vote for placement (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). The winner will receive the prize, but only after judging the following round.<o:p></o:p>
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What do you all think??? Oh, and PLEASE keep the theme ideas rolling! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/mwink.gif" border="0" alt="" >
Sounds good to me. My post earlier in no way meant to affend anyone or to say anything bad about composites. I agree with you about not relying on one trick.
Also the receiving the prize after judging the next round is a great idea.
Eric
It's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.
http://photosbyeric.smugmug.com
I am good with this but one question? Do the 3 weeks overlap or does the next challenge not start until after the week of judging? I think you could overlap without it affecting the group- by not doing so would also leave everyone except the judges twiddling their thumbs for a week.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
The whole point of the week interim is to allow everyone time to review and critique each other's work (as well as read and reflect on the judge's feedback). How cool would it be to really have a set period for this, rather than jumping right into a new round?