Great comments, Aaron. I hope they will help what you seem to despair of, that is use this opportunity to build a basis for future contests which we all can enjoy.
I was looking forward to participating in LPS2 but now I realize why it is not going to happen. Unless some memebers here don't win every month or at all they will think the challenge is faulty, rigged, biased etc...
and if they do think its faulty, rigged, biased, etc... this is the thread to express ideas to prevent those things on the next contest in development....
and just incase this was some sort of personal attack let me make it clear....i dont care if i win or lose....it is nice to win....but i dont want to ever lose because jack or jill had a network of friends to vote for them...
but more importantly im here to interact with photogs that want to help me become better....
Great comments, Aaron. I hope they will help what you seem to despair of, that is use this opportunity to build a basis for future contests which we all can enjoy.
Neil
fyi, i do agree to a point with alot of your ideas and points.
and i hope they get incorporated.
Okay, my turn to chime in. As a very occassional LPS competitor, and as someone that is on the fence about whether to compete in the next version, let me say I have no interest in on going whinging and b*tching and debates about rules, no interest in drumming up opinions about my photos through "critique" threads ahead of time, and am simply interested in competing with what I think is my best or most appropriate shot given the rules of the game.
I have volunteered many, many times and early on tried to find maximum consensus. It is time consumming and usually ineffective. And then, no matter how thorough the effort to find that consensus, after the fact there is always someone that thinks they weren't listened to or (worse yet) didn't think to speak up befoer but figure its worth b*tching now.
So I am inclined to agree with this sentiment:
If you enter any other photo contest (non forum) you do not have the right to complain, question the rules, or challenge the winning photo. You have a choice to enter or not enter.
Are you going to question National Geographics Photo Contest? How about Canon's?
Lets stop talking in circles. Accept the fact that it will not be perfect and lets enjoy it.
It will not be possible to accept and include each view point, and the tone in this thread has gone from helpful suggestions to personal agenda, and I dislike that.
and if they do think its faulty, rigged, biased, etc... this is the thread to express ideas to prevent those things on the next contest in development....
and just incase this was some sort of personal attack let me make it clear....i dont care if i win or lose....it is nice to win....but i dont want to ever lose because jack or jill had a network of friends to vote for them...
but more importantly im here to interact with photogs that want to help me become better....
That is kinda my point. There are plenty of sections here on Dgrin for interaction that can help us become better photographers. I just think making contest rules so that every person entered gets a warm fuzzy felling is asking too much.
I think that they should decide what the rules are going to be, list them and then let the members here decide if they think they want to participate. If you do participate then you are entering based on the published rules and complaints at that point are just whining........IMHO.
That is kinda my point. There are plenty of sections here on Dgrin for interaction that can help us become better photographers. I just think making contest rules so that every person entered gets a warm fuzzy felling is asking too much.
I think that they should decide what the rules are going to be, list them and then let the members here decide if they think they want to participate. If you do participate then you are entering based on the published rules and complaints at that point are just whining........IMHO.
ok, maybe you should go read a few past threads so you can catch up...
your just repeating what ive stated many times already....
this specific thread it to help the developers of the next contest receive new ideas, from us. the competitors......
ok, maybe you should go read a few past threads so you can catch up...
your just repeating what ive stated many times already....
this specific thread it to help the developers of the next contest receive new ideas, from us. the competitors......
No need to catch up on anything.
I am giving my ideas................stop asking for ideas, make your rules and if people want to "play" then they will and should do so with out complaining about the rules.
I get where everyone is coming from, on not wanting to listen to everyone complain about every little thing...i truly understand this. But it worries me, people seem to think that lobbying was taking place in order to get votes for their photos in LPS, so having it set up where no one is allowed to say anything then just opens the door to even more to this, because no body will be able to question something. So this becomes a huge catch 22...
I have no idea how to prevent this, but I do think some more time needs to be taken to figure out the rule of not complaining, I know this is a huge job and very time consuming, but the design of the empire state building was not drafted overnight. So I think it should be figured out a tad more then just the cut and dry of no complaining period...I know things will never work out perfectly and not everyone will be happy, but still at bit more of time to fine tune the "complaints kept to a minimum" rule should be given.
"complaints kept to a minimum" rule should be given.
why should any complaint be allowed even to a minimum....?
thats what ruined lps.
as for voting, the issue was people were having friends, co-workers, etc.. join dgrin to vote for them...to what extent? i do not know.
i like neils suggestion on having a requirement to vote.....
I get where everyone is coming from, on not wanting to listen to everyone complain about every little thing...i truly understand this. But it worries me, people seem to think that lobbying was taking place in order to get votes for their photos in LPS, so having it set up where no one is allowed to say anything then just opens the door to even more to this, because no body will be able to question something. So this becomes a huge catch 22...
I have no idea how to prevent this, but I do think some more time needs to be taken to figure out the rule of not complaining, I know this is a huge job and very time consuming, but the design of the empire state building was not drafted overnight. So I think it should be figured out a tad more then just the cut and dry of no complaining period...I know things will never work out perfectly and not everyone will be happy, but still at bit more of time to fine tune the "complaints kept to a minimum" rule should be given.
Believe me - we all want it to be the best as possible......
We are not bulding the Empire State Building- we are not even doing another LPS!!
These are photo challenges meant to challenge you mentaly, artictically, and technically. That is the GOAL of the contests/challenges.
I suggest everyone take two steps back and remember that. The longer this goes on the less that goal is achieved.
"The Journey of life is as much in oneself as the roads one travels"
Believe me - we all want it to be the best as possible......
We are not bulding the Empire State Building- we are not even doing another LPS!!
These are photo challenges meant to challenge you mentaly, artictically, and technically. That is the GOAL of the contests/challenges.
I suggest everyone take two steps back and remember that. The longer this goes on the less that goal is achieved.
Then lets not even have prizes... We can have the digital awards like I suggested (so people get something very small they can be proud of) and call it day.
You say the best possible, having a rule that says no one can question anything is not the best possible scenerio at all.
lets not take my empire state building so literaly, I was simply making the point that in order to get things right, it takes time in order to do so...so please do not be so literal. :ivar :ivar :ivar :ivar :ivar :ivar
*edit* This may have come across as unfriendly, not my intention at all, this comment has been nothing but friendly. I am not a literal person, so I was just letting that be known...and I think it could come across as negative...
It really is amazing that a simple contest can't function properly. Sorry if my ideas don't fit into your utopia...........I will slowly sip the kool-aide and get back to you.
why should any complaint be allowed even to a minimum....?
thats what ruined lps.
as for voting, the issue was people were having friends, co-workers, etc.. join dgrin to vote for them...to what extent? i do not know.
i like neils suggestion on having a requirement to vote.....
I know that was one of the big issues with LPS, but the min. rule, should have more guidelines, then being so subjective...
That is what I am talking about with the voting, is that if no one is allowed to complain, then people can do whatever they want, lobby all they want and get votes in unethecical ways again and then no one can say anything at all.
I do agree that a min. post count or min. time on the boards is a step in the right direction. or an either or option, cause I know there are alot of people on here, who are valid members of this board that do not post much but would love to vote, but will be limited by thier post count and not allowed to vote. So if there is a min. post count or min. amount of time that they have been a part of the board, I think we will be able to rule out lobbying for votes, or most of it any way.
It really is amazing that a simple contest can't function properly. Sorry if my ideas don't fit into your utopia...........I will slowly sip the kool-aide and get back to you.
:jose i guess its time for me to sit back too.....even Anns mad...
how about something to the effect of, in order for a complaint to be sent to the judges (or whomever) the given complaints (and perhaps suggestions) must be agreed upon by 5 different voting members first. (They all have to sign it or something).
Ideally, that would drop the amount of extremely minor complaints, yet still allow for needed modifications to be explored
Wow, this is really going downhill. Some great suggestions at first. I liked participating in LPS, and was looking forward to the new challenges. After all of this complaining about the rules, I'm not as excited about it anymore. With so much disagreement on the rules, how will we get a challenge that will satisfy enough people to run well? I don't have a suggestion to deal with the overload that the mods and judges had to deal with before (or the endless threads about what is allowed or not), but it does make me question if I will want to continue with this or not.
I don't see how further arguing about allowing complaints or not will accomplish anything. Would it be better at this point to concentrate more on what we want the challenges to be about rather than the fine points of the rules for now?
Lets get back on track, and talking about the things Emily has asked for! Please.
Thanks for noticin....:D
It seems to me that the vast majority of folks thought that the LPS was an amazing and fun contest. It seems to me that with some of the slight refinements mentioned in this thread and no doubt learned from experience by those who DONATED their time for the contest, we have a blueprint for an even better contest right now.
I've got my last finals tomorrow and I'm ready to get going!!!!!!
I know that was one of the big issues with LPS, but the min. rule, should have more guidelines, then being so subjective...
That is what I am talking about with the voting, is that if no one is allowed to complain, then people can do whatever they want, lobby all they want and get votes in unethecical ways again and then no one can say anything at all.
I do agree that a min. post count or min. time on the boards is a step in the right direction. or an either or option, cause I know there are alot of people on here, who are valid members of this board that do not post much but would love to vote, but will be limited by thier post count and not allowed to vote. So if there is a min. post count or min. amount of time that they have been a part of the board, I think we will be able to rule out lobbying for votes, or most of it any way.
It seems to me that the vast majority of folks thought that the LPS was an amazing and fun contest. It seems to me that with some of the slight refinements mentioned in this thread and no doubt learned from experience by those who DONATED their time for the contest, we have a blueprint for an even better contest right now.
I've got my last finals tomorrow and I'm ready to get going!!!!!!
You are welcome...I think we are getting somewhere now...I think that if something like this is put into action, they may be less complaints and hopefully will get rid of the friends voting issue.
mabye we can start hashing out some numbers here of min. post count or min. time on the boards...this way it is one less thing the judges have to worry about or whoever is putting this together. Lets be friendly here with this, cause it can take a turn for the worse.
how about something to the effect of, in order for a complaint to be sent to the judges (or whomever) the given complaints (and perhaps suggestions) must be agreed upon by 5 different voting members first. (They all have to sign it or something).
Ideally, that would drop the amount of extremely minor complaints, yet still allow for needed modifications to be explored
Nate
This is a great compromise and I think could work with the addition of once the complaint has been answered, that is it and no further harassment will be tolerated. If you were the complainant and the issue was not resolved to your liking with the answer from the authorities, you can walk and not participate further.
So lets recap and see if we can get something hashed out here...These things are what the folks participating in this thread seem to agree on...
1. Min. Post count to vote - number to be determined. and or Min. amount of time being a part of the boards - number to be determined.
2. In order for a complaint to go through to the deciding powers, it must be submitted and 5 (number is not concrete) other voting members in order for it to be submitted to the deciding powers. Once the final decision has come down, there is not an appeal option...consider it like a double jeporady rule that our laws have.
3. All forms of photos are allowed to be submitted as long as they were taken with in the time frame of the contest, this includes all pieces of composite photos.
4. Judging will be done by both voting and a panel of judges (judges panel number still needs to be determined, my guess is this will be decided by the amount of people wanting to help...I think the number should be a s big as it can be with in reason).
I am not sure if I am missing anything, but I think we have a good foundation here and maybe we can get some consensus on these from everyone and see if we get something a little more solid.
So lets recap and see if we can get something hashed out here...These things are what the folks participating in this thread seem to agree on...
1. Min. Post count to vote - number to be determined. and or Min. amount of time being a part of the boards - number to be determined.
2. In order for a complaint to go through to the deciding powers, it must be submitted and 5 (number is not concrete) other voting members in order for it to be submitted to the deciding powers. Once the final decision has come down, there is not an appeal option...consider it like a double jeporady rule that our laws have.
3. All forms of photos are allowed to be submitted as long as they were taken with in the time frame of the contest, this includes all pieces of composite photos.
4. Judging will be done by both voting and a panel of judges (judges panel number still needs to be determined, my guess is this will be decided by the amount of people wanting to help...I think the number should be a s big as it can be with in reason).
I am not sure if I am missing anything, but I think we have a good foundation here and maybe we can get some consensus on these from everyone and see if we get something a little more solid.
5. Everyone that participates must have a really great time taking pictures. <- to be strictly enforced!
Maybe I am just gloriously naive, but I think if this contest was just about photography, there would be far less motivation for people to complain, cheat, or try to get around the rules, and thus less of a need for thorough and exhaustive rules in the first place. If there are big prizes to be won, then the more this contest will be about prizes than photography to some.
I would be totally fine with smugmug based prizes, like advanced accounts being awarded and maybe some editing software. When you start adding money or gift certificates to photography shops, lens lust starts to enter the equation.
I would also be fine with the contest having no prizes, other than the reward of having your photo selected by other people. Then it would only be about photography. The only reason I ever started shooting for LPS was because it gave me ideas and inspiration, not the prizes. Complicated rules are like the inverse of inspiration to me.
On a completely different note, I really liked the point one person made about how the dual themes allow people of all photography types to participate as opposed to having themes like "portraits" or "landscapes", etc. I think this really factored into the participation that the original LPS had.
Maybe I am just gloriously naive, but I think if this contest was just about photography, there would be far less motivation for people to complain, cheat, or try to get around the rules, and thus less of a need for thorough and exhaustive rules in the first place. If there are big prizes to be won, then the more this contest will be about prizes than photography to some.
I agree to a point that not having prizes would cut out some of the riff-raff, but I do think you would still get complaining. I also think that prizes encourage alot of people to participate that might otherwise have not become involved. People have been commenting over and over how participation has fallen off since LPS has ended.
I guess the argument to that is, fine then just let them not be involved, but I really think the numbers would be disappointing and I think that is the reason for having even small prizes, like a smug mug account or something and you will get complaints from people even with prizes that small.
Comments
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
and if they do think its faulty, rigged, biased, etc... this is the thread to express ideas to prevent those things on the next contest in development....
and just incase this was some sort of personal attack let me make it clear....i dont care if i win or lose....it is nice to win....but i dont want to ever lose because jack or jill had a network of friends to vote for them...
but more importantly im here to interact with photogs that want to help me become better....
fyi, i do agree to a point with alot of your ideas and points.
and i hope they get incorporated.
I have volunteered many, many times and early on tried to find maximum consensus. It is time consumming and usually ineffective. And then, no matter how thorough the effort to find that consensus, after the fact there is always someone that thinks they weren't listened to or (worse yet) didn't think to speak up befoer but figure its worth b*tching now.
So I am inclined to agree with this sentiment:
It will not be possible to accept and include each view point, and the tone in this thread has gone from helpful suggestions to personal agenda, and I dislike that.
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
Ramblings About Me
That is kinda my point. There are plenty of sections here on Dgrin for interaction that can help us become better photographers. I just think making contest rules so that every person entered gets a warm fuzzy felling is asking too much.
I think that they should decide what the rules are going to be, list them and then let the members here decide if they think they want to participate. If you do participate then you are entering based on the published rules and complaints at that point are just whining........IMHO.
Various pieces of Canon gear.
ok, maybe you should go read a few past threads so you can catch up...
your just repeating what ive stated many times already....
this specific thread it to help the developers of the next contest receive new ideas, from us. the competitors......
No need to catch up on anything.
I am giving my ideas................stop asking for ideas, make your rules and if people want to "play" then they will and should do so with out complaining about the rules.
Various pieces of Canon gear.
I have no idea how to prevent this, but I do think some more time needs to be taken to figure out the rule of not complaining, I know this is a huge job and very time consuming, but the design of the empire state building was not drafted overnight. So I think it should be figured out a tad more then just the cut and dry of no complaining period...I know things will never work out perfectly and not everyone will be happy, but still at bit more of time to fine tune the "complaints kept to a minimum" rule should be given.
www.brandonperron.com
I thought this thread was about new ideas?
Various pieces of Canon gear.
why should any complaint be allowed even to a minimum....?
thats what ruined lps.
as for voting, the issue was people were having friends, co-workers, etc.. join dgrin to vote for them...to what extent? i do not know.
i like neils suggestion on having a requirement to vote.....
stop already....
Believe me - we all want it to be the best as possible......
We are not bulding the Empire State Building- we are not even doing another LPS!!
These are photo challenges meant to challenge you mentaly, artictically, and technically. That is the GOAL of the contests/challenges.
I suggest everyone take two steps back and remember that. The longer this goes on the less that goal is achieved.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Then lets not even have prizes... We can have the digital awards like I suggested (so people get something very small they can be proud of) and call it day.
You say the best possible, having a rule that says no one can question anything is not the best possible scenerio at all.
lets not take my empire state building so literaly, I was simply making the point that in order to get things right, it takes time in order to do so...so please do not be so literal. :ivar :ivar :ivar :ivar :ivar :ivar
*edit* This may have come across as unfriendly, not my intention at all, this comment has been nothing but friendly. I am not a literal person, so I was just letting that be known...and I think it could come across as negative...
www.brandonperron.com
It really is amazing that a simple contest can't function properly. Sorry if my ideas don't fit into your utopia...........I will slowly sip the kool-aide and get back to you.
Various pieces of Canon gear.
I know that was one of the big issues with LPS, but the min. rule, should have more guidelines, then being so subjective...
That is what I am talking about with the voting, is that if no one is allowed to complain, then people can do whatever they want, lobby all they want and get votes in unethecical ways again and then no one can say anything at all.
I do agree that a min. post count or min. time on the boards is a step in the right direction. or an either or option, cause I know there are alot of people on here, who are valid members of this board that do not post much but would love to vote, but will be limited by thier post count and not allowed to vote. So if there is a min. post count or min. amount of time that they have been a part of the board, I think we will be able to rule out lobbying for votes, or most of it any way.
www.brandonperron.com
:jose i guess its time for me to sit back too.....even Anns mad...
Ideally, that would drop the amount of extremely minor complaints, yet still allow for needed modifications to be explored
Nate
-Nate
Equipment
Canon Stuff (and third party stuff as well)
Tampa Bay Wedding Photography
Lets get back on track, and talking about the things Emily has asked for! Please.
Thanks for noticin....:D
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
Ramblings About Me
I don't see how further arguing about allowing complaints or not will accomplish anything. Would it be better at this point to concentrate more on what we want the challenges to be about rather than the fine points of the rules for now?
http://jziegler.smugmug.com
It seems to me that the vast majority of folks thought that the LPS was an amazing and fun contest. It seems to me that with some of the slight refinements mentioned in this thread and no doubt learned from experience by those who DONATED their time for the contest, we have a blueprint for an even better contest right now.
I've got my last finals tomorrow and I'm ready to get going!!!!!!
This is an improvement on my idea, thanks, BP
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
(Good luck tomorrow!!)
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
You are welcome...I think we are getting somewhere now...I think that if something like this is put into action, they may be less complaints and hopefully will get rid of the friends voting issue.
mabye we can start hashing out some numbers here of min. post count or min. time on the boards...this way it is one less thing the judges have to worry about or whoever is putting this together. Lets be friendly here with this, cause it can take a turn for the worse.
www.brandonperron.com
This is a great compromise and I think could work with the addition of once the complaint has been answered, that is it and no further harassment will be tolerated. If you were the complainant and the issue was not resolved to your liking with the answer from the authorities, you can walk and not participate further.
Let's go.............
1. Min. Post count to vote - number to be determined. and or Min. amount of time being a part of the boards - number to be determined.
2. In order for a complaint to go through to the deciding powers, it must be submitted and 5 (number is not concrete) other voting members in order for it to be submitted to the deciding powers. Once the final decision has come down, there is not an appeal option...consider it like a double jeporady rule that our laws have.
3. All forms of photos are allowed to be submitted as long as they were taken with in the time frame of the contest, this includes all pieces of composite photos.
4. Judging will be done by both voting and a panel of judges (judges panel number still needs to be determined, my guess is this will be decided by the amount of people wanting to help...I think the number should be a s big as it can be with in reason).
I am not sure if I am missing anything, but I think we have a good foundation here and maybe we can get some consensus on these from everyone and see if we get something a little more solid.
www.brandonperron.com
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >
I would be totally fine with smugmug based prizes, like advanced accounts being awarded and maybe some editing software. When you start adding money or gift certificates to photography shops, lens lust starts to enter the equation.
I would also be fine with the contest having no prizes, other than the reward of having your photo selected by other people. Then it would only be about photography. The only reason I ever started shooting for LPS was because it gave me ideas and inspiration, not the prizes. Complicated rules are like the inverse of inspiration to me.
On a completely different note, I really liked the point one person made about how the dual themes allow people of all photography types to participate as opposed to having themes like "portraits" or "landscapes", etc. I think this really factored into the participation that the original LPS had.
I agree to a point that not having prizes would cut out some of the riff-raff, but I do think you would still get complaining. I also think that prizes encourage alot of people to participate that might otherwise have not become involved. People have been commenting over and over how participation has fallen off since LPS has ended.
I guess the argument to that is, fine then just let them not be involved, but I really think the numbers would be disappointing and I think that is the reason for having even small prizes, like a smug mug account or something and you will get complaints from people even with prizes that small.
www.brandonperron.com