Quote: Ok, so here's the general format that has been pretty much pinned down:<o:p></o:p>[/COLOR] <o:p></o:p> Rounds last for a total of 3 weeks. Two weeks of shooting and then one week allowed for judging and feedback.
*** Too intense for most people's comfort level, I think.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Since our main goals are growth, input/opinions may be sought during the shooting period. Feedback from each other is STRONGLY encouraged during the judging week following the entry deadline.
*** Yes, of course! And after the winner announcement...<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> At the end of the shooting period, there will be two judges, consisting of the previous round winner and one other randomly selected person (might be a moderator, any one of you or someone totally outside the group). These judges will each select their top ten, in no particular order. They are required to give brief feedback on each of their selected finalists.
Selected finalists (up to 20) then go to a public vote for placement (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). The winner will receive the prize, but only after judging the following round.
*** = no trust?
<o:p></o:p>*** No, don't like, for reasons described earlier. Two winners separately chosen. Much more fun as well. Polls are fun! The excitement of waiting to see who the judges will give their prize to is fun! I am also interested in the two points of view, judges' and popular, and would prefer these two have their natural and logical outcome in two separate prizes. Otherwise, the "overlooked" by the judges have no chance, and the popular vote then further overshadows the whole judges' process. Some repeatedly "unsuccessful" entrants in the first stage of judging might begin to despair that they can never get past the vetting by the (2!) judges - too restricted a range of opinion for a critical stage. Worse if there is also a repeated winner who is also a repeated judge! Is this the way to encourage variety, experiment, risktaking?
<o:p></o:p>
What do you all think??? Oh, and PLEASE keep the theme ideas rolling! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/mwink.gif" border="0" alt="" >
*** Would like to see the rules for entry and voting. A lot depends on them and they were pretty woeful for LPS.
*** Strikes me as too piecemeal again - the awkward shared judging/prizegiving especially. Simplicity and clear consistency is needed, along with maximised opportunity to succeed with entries that have a chance because there are two judging processes and two prizes .
*** Neil
BTW What in the "already pretty much pinned down" reflects the input you asked for in this thread?
I like the idea of changing themes and other parameters: like a dual theme first then a single theme with constraints, then a strictly composite round etc....
I really think that the "no bitching or else" provision needs to be clearly stated so as to avoid repetition of the past. Judging is final, period. Start moaning and you are out of the contest and/or suspended from the forum. Mods and judges already have enough on their plate from donating their time to the contest.
Whatever is decided, I am looking forward to the contest, even if I never come up with anything good enough to enter!!!<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/wings.gif" border="0" alt="" >
I assume that the winner of any given contest is automatically ruled out for the next contest if they are judging it? What do they do for two weeks?
I also think it would be good to have an extra judge, perhaps a 'featured pro' which changed every so often.
I think we need to make sure the prizes are globally accessible, as DGrin is a global forum with contributors all over the world. e.g - a photography workshop in the U.S wouldnt work unless it became an 'all expenses paid' situation.
I like the idea of starting the next contest after the first one ends, even while the feedback/critique is being given, as this keeps everything moving.
I also like the idea of dual theme for two weeks, then a single theme for the next week. Especially if the dual themes were content related and the single theme may be related to the way you shoot it/process it (e.g b&w or straight out of camera)
First off, thanks to GreenSquared for taking the time to solicit input from everyone!
- I think the three weeks pace is a pretty good compromise. I understand it may be a bit fast for some, but you don't have to enter every time anyway. I'd hate for it to be much slower. I think the week break is a very good thing to try. It could prove boring if we don't get enough participation but I hope instead it will promote more critique and community discussion. I think we should be ready to drop the third week or alter the format as necessary to ensure the third week proves useful to the community.
- I like the default "anything goes" approach to entry rules (re: composites, photoshop) and occasional "themes" like "straight from the camera" or what not would be fun and break folks from their routines. I have to respectfully disagree with Neil on making the rules more specific (although I actually like his rules). I don't think more rules will reduce contraversy in any meaningful way, no matter what rules you set there will always someone who thinks an entry doesn't meet their definition of a "photo". Rules are fine, but I think too many of them puts more of a burden on the moderators and judges than it is worth. Keep the rules very simple and loose.
- One thing I very, VERY much think the new contests should have is a tiered approach like LPS did. I really, REALLY want to have something like a periodic unthemed semi-final (or final) round. This provides two things I consider important. First, an occasional showcase of the "best" photographers which makes for a very high quality set of photos. Second, by going unthemed we can see photos that have a creative length of much longer than two weeks (even if they were only acquired in the two weeks of the SF) - this can also up the quality/creativity of the photos. I like the limited entry nature of the SF round, it is a bit of prize in itself to be allowed to participate. A contest with no theme and limited to people who have already won a "qual" also really creates a new level of challenge for those participating and I think again is its own reward. The SFs should be at a max four times a year. I don't see a need for a "final" tier like in LPS. Just an every so often unthemed limited entry contest to mix things up.
- I'm a little concerned with the judging. I think it is great to force the previous winner to participate, good for spreading out the work. I'm not sure the other judge should be "random". I think the task of the second judge should be spread among the community, and ideally among a subset of the community willing to take the time and put in the effort required. Furthermore I think these folks should be able to volunteer which contests they want to judge based on their schedule and perhaps their preferrence for a given theme. My biggest concern on the judging is that we somehow make sure the judges aren't exposed to some of the childishness that came up in LPS. More than once judges were berated for "not doing it right" by folks who had no cause to complain. I had thought perhaps of having anonymous judges. This causes some complication (e.g. winners wouldn't judge the very next competition but one in the near future so people wouldn't know exactly who did which contest) and sadly breaks a bit of the concept of a community (it would be nice for judges to give their input openly, of course in an anon case they could have the option to identify themselves). In any case, I think some thought needs to be given to insulating the judges and other moderators from some of the uglier parts of the community.
- I disagree strongly on forcing judges to critique every single photo entered. The job will be hard enough. If people want critique they can submit to the community at large and ask for it.
- Public voting is good and should occur at some point. Whether it is on every contest from a selection of the top photos selected by the judges or just on SF like rounds doesn't much matter to me, but at some point community members should participate by voting.
- Some sort of small prize would be nice. Perhaps if it was small prizes on every contest rather than big $ prizes on SFs and finals it would remove a bit of ugliness? I really don't have a strong feeling on the prizes, especially if they end up being more trouble than they are worth, but a modest "attaboy" prize I think would be a nice thing.
- Loved the dual themes, but I don't think necessarily every contest needs to be done that way (though I wouldn't mind).
Again, thanks for taking the time! Anxiously awaiting a new challenge.
I dont think anybody was unhappy with the last LPS,
why do you want to change it? Stop buying yourself
time! Get the next LPS out!
“To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
― Edward Weston
the composite argument
I've entered a few of the LPS rounds (when I had time), and I liked what I did, so I'm looking forward to the contests starting up.
I've stayed out of the composite/ps argument in the past because I didn't want to contribute to a flame war. But, now that constructive opinions are solicited, I'm going to throw in my two cents.
I think that the digital medium allows for a certain level of compositeness, but the trick comes in some sort of moderation. I think the line comes when the photo is of one subject, composited in a way to overcome a technical limitation of photography in a way that is only easily possible in the digital medium. For example I think that panoramas, HDRs, and focus stacked images should be allowed becaue they are all of the same subject and over come a technical limitation (finite focal length, small dynamic range, finite depth of field). I'm also OK with masking and cloning elements out, or even color changing, selective color, split toning, etc. Adjustments to a single photo (local or global) all fall under standard processing that we all do. The key to the restrictions I would place are that they all must come from photos of the same subject, no blue screening of models into scenes, etc. (Also, this would also allow things like triptiches (sp?).)
Lastly, I would make this the case for almost all rounds, but would allow some rounds to stretch this, but in general, it would be a photography contest primarily, and allow photoshop contests on occasion.
Also, I would much prefer month long contests (perhaps overlapped?) as it would give people that don't have tonnes of free time a chance to iterate and improve over the contest. With LPS I often had one day to try and get out and get a shot that met the theme that I was happy with, hence my lack of participation. I'd have one week to think about it, then a single weekend to get the shot basically.
holy cow...here we go again with
"what i think should be allowed" opinions.....
~post-processing is part of digital photography period.
why should the question even come up about if they used photoshop too much or to little....jeez....
if it were a film contest would we limit the darkroom time, and only allow certin chems?
why dont we just start suggesting that we are only allowed to point our camera west, or use manual focus only, or better yet, we must use auto mode so not to make things unfair....we would hate to have the M mode uses have more tools....
yes, im done with my tizzie....
what i liked from LPS
making members top-10s was a joy to me that someone enjoyed my little shot....
doing my own top-10 to show those that i enjoyed theirs...
also, C&C helping from one to another to tweak entries before the judging...
alot can be learned just watching that unfold....
what i didnt like....
voting in the final stages, there should be judges only...period
but mostly, not knowing who the whiners were that ruined LPS....
I'm happy to offer my input for whatever it is worth. I really enjoyed the LPS contests and wish I had had the time and creativity to contribute to more than I did.
I really liked the dual themes and would hope that at least some rounds are dual themed, but I wouldn't object to a periodic break from the dual theme (a very broad single theme perhaps). One of the best things about dual theme is that it guarantees variety in the entries. For example, every picture in a black/white single theme would of course be black and white.
For judging, I liked that there were multiple judges and they were different each round. I would suggest that there be maybe 2-3 guest judges each round and one constant judge each round - the popular vote - so the community opinion is always counted. One thing that might eliminate favorites would be the submissions are posted without the authors names, but that might be too much trouble for the mods.
My stance on post processing would be that any ammount is allowed with the understanding that it can help you win or help you lose based solely on the judges' preferences.
I assume that the prizes were part of the motivation for people to complain, so I would be fine without them. The growth of photography is the best prize of all.
I like the suggestion of a week after each contest solely for critiques - I think that was one of the best things about LPS was all the feedback.
I like the suggestion of larger resolution for the entries so we can enjoy these outstanding sumissions in their full detail.
The open rounds were my least favorite to participate in because they were too "open" for me, heh.
I imagine "rules lawyering" will happen whether we have thorough and exhaustive rules or hardly any rules. I would hope that maybe keeping the rules light might also help keep the overall mood of the thing light.
Finally, thanks in advance to Greensquared, the mods and everyone else who is planning on dedicating their personal time to make this possible.
My couple of comments...
First, thanks for taking this effort on. Here are my comments in no particular order...
It would be nice if there were some P&S only contests included along the way. Kind of going with the idea that it is the operator not the camera that makes a great photo. I also think it will give a more level playing field every so often. Yes, I realize that the features are different between P&S camera, and some border on DSLR but it is a start
I think that one person wins a LPS qualifier they should not be allowed to enter again until the next LPS starts. Basically it keeps a few really great photographers from getting all the spots.
I would really like to see a Pro & Amateur class, or a Amateur only round or the like. Basically if you don't get paid for your photographs you is an amateur.
I think that one person wins a LPS qualifier they should not be allowed to enter again until the next LPS starts. Basically it keeps a few really great photographers from getting all the spots.
I disagree with this, I think a contest is meant so that you can compete with the best. If one person wins a few times, so be it. Everyone else should pick their game up. It sounds like the winner of each round will participate in the judging for the next round anyhow, so they cant win 'back to back' contests. Last LPS provided a fairly even spread so I dont think there is much to worry about.
1) Dual Themes to start every two weeks. Judging & Voting at the start of the next round. This voting should ONLY last one week.
2) Constructive Feedback can be left by all members under each submision. Along with a place to list public comments on moaning after the contest ends.
3) Constructive feedback,if possibly, on ALL SUBMITED PHOTOS by judges.
4) prizes limited to 1,2,3 place photos. Some type of credit to SM, gift certificate to local or online photo stores... etc.
5) Keep the RULES simple and fair --
Gil
Take Nothing But Memories:rofl Kill Nothing But Time :clap Leave Nothing But Footprints :thumb
Dual, single, restricted, wide open? Something completely different and outside of the box that we haven't even considered? A theme around the themes? Groups of themes, such as "the next three rounds will be within the limit of black and white" or 3 rounds of portrait, 3 rounds of nature, 3 rounds of street photog, 3 rounds of close-up/macro, 3 rounds of sports, and so on. These are the types of ideas we really want to work on. Maybe simple is best? What would appeal to you all that haved participated in the past, as well as newcomers. Maybe we can find a way to pull in others from the other forums within Dgrin.
Dual, single, restricted, wide open? Something completely different and outside of the box that we haven't even considered? A theme around the themes? Groups of themes, such as "the next three rounds will be within the limit of black and white" or 3 rounds of portrait, 3 rounds of nature, 3 rounds of street photog, 3 rounds of close-up/macro, 3 rounds of sports, and so on. These are the types of ideas we really want to work on. Maybe simple is best? What would appeal to you all that haved participated in the past, as well as newcomers. Maybe we can find a way to pull in others from the other forums within Dgrin.
Here's some theme ideas - theme "D", theme "G", theme "R", theme "I" , and theme "N"!
Dual, single, restricted, wide open? Something completely different and outside of the box that we haven't even considered? A theme around the themes? Groups of themes, such as "the next three rounds will be within the limit of black and white" or 3 rounds of portrait, 3 rounds of nature, 3 rounds of street photog, 3 rounds of close-up/macro, 3 rounds of sports, and so on. These are the types of ideas we really want to work on. Maybe simple is best? What would appeal to you all that haved participated in the past, as well as newcomers. Maybe we can find a way to pull in others from the other forums within Dgrin.
Dual, single, restricted, wide open? Something completely different and outside of the box that we haven't even considered? A theme around the themes? Groups of themes, such as "the next three rounds will be within the limit of black and white" or 3 rounds of portrait, 3 rounds of nature, 3 rounds of street photog, 3 rounds of close-up/macro, 3 rounds of sports, and so on. These are the types of ideas we really want to work on. Maybe simple is best? What would appeal to you all that haved participated in the past, as well as newcomers. Maybe we can find a way to pull in others from the other forums within Dgrin.
Hmm... I would like it more open than this. I mean really do you want to look at 100 portraits 3 contests in a row?? Than follwed by 100 sport photos 3 weeks in a row?? There are already categories where you can do this if you so choose.
I think the contest is best when the theme allows all of the said categories to be able to be used to fit the theme.
Example: Water or vapor
Sports= Swimming- An athlete sweating- the fuel vapor of a dragster
Portrait= Washing a face- Blowing smoke-
Macro= Water droplets on a flower- items being dropped into a liquid and making a splash
Nature: Fish- Bird Catching a Fish
Landscape: Waterfall- Ocean- Lake
and so on......
"The Journey of life is as much in oneself as the roads one travels"
How about more monochrome challenges. I have a passion for monochromes, but rarely see any get past the initial judging. If periodic challenges had to be in monochrome I feel like I and other monochrome enthusiasts might have a better shot at actually becoming a finalist.
So, maybe it's just a plug for my interests, ok it is... hehe. But, I never feel like I can have a shot because everyone only wants color. I love color, but have a true passion for monochromes. Hence, I don't ever feel like I have a shot at being seriously considered.
It seems that everyone really likes the idea of mixing up the themes, not any one particular format. Not too many restrictions, but enough to push yourselves ouside of your comfort zones. Yes?
Ok here is another idea - what if we focused on more smaller prizes so more people have the chance at winning something. Maybe in-between the old format and the LPS. Maybe we could have multiple challenges going at the same time.
It seems that everyone really likes the idea of mixing up the themes, not any one particular format. Not too many restrictions, but enough to push yourselves ouside of your comfort zones. Yes?
Some have mentioned that a 2 week contest period is too short or that they often have real life interference. How about instead of 2 challenges a month on a two week schedule having two a month with challenge 1 lasting the whole month and challenge 2 being weeks 2-3 of the month.
I personally felt more challenged during the LPS series with the 2 week schedule. I spent the first week planning and the second week shooting and doing PP. To me the time constraint made it more challenging; concept, plan, shoot, edit, and post all in a short period (ok maybe I'm an adrenaline junkie or something.)
"The point in life isn't to arrive at our final destination well preserved and in pristine condition, but rather to slide in sideways yelling.....Holy cow, what a ride."
1. Have one theme. Dual themes and all is nice, but a single theme based challenge will be easier to judge and manage
2. One challenege every month instead of every fortnight
3. Let there be public voting on 10 images chosen by the judge(s)
4. All 10 get prizes(40$ smuggie credit) and the winner can get bigger credit
5. Have this for 10 months. At the end, the shortlisted people(atmost 100) can participate in grand finale. Again out of maximim 100 images judges choose and people vote.
The last grand finale step is optional and we can have 12 disjointed contests.
Having not participated in LPS, I was wondering why have a "feedback" in the challenges? I think that the judges giving a little about why they choose the 10 (or however many) is a good thing but to expect them to critique every photo posted by every person entered could get a little much. There are plenty of places here on Dgrin where you can post your photos to get feedback on them, I don't see a "challenge" or contest to be the best place for it.
1. Have one theme. Dual themes and all is nice, but a single theme based challenge will be easier to judge and manage
2. One challenege every month instead of every fortnight
3. Let there be public voting on 10 images chosen by the judge(s)
4. All 10 get prizes(40$ smuggie credit) and the winner can get bigger credit
5. Have this for 10 months. At the end, the shortlisted people(atmost 100) can participate in grand finale. Again out of maximim 100 images judges choose and people vote.
The last grand finale step is optional and we can have 12 disjointed contests.
Yes, one per month is fairer for everyone. The hardcase junkies will be irritated but they won't be excluded, as many busy-with-other-things folk will be if the time is shorter!
I can see the possibility of dissatisfaction developing with the shared voting idea, especially with the 2 judges limit. The "overlooked" by the judges have no further chance, and the popular vote then further overshadows the whole judges' process. In other words, the judges' judging becomes meaningless except as a way of vetting the entries since it doesn't directly produce a winner. Some repeatedly "unsuccessful" entrants in the first stage of judging might begin to despair that they can ever get past the vetting by the (2!) judges (too restricted a range of opinion for a critical stage). Worse if there is also a repeated winner who is also a repeated judge! Is this the way to encourage variety, experiment, risktaking?
What is needed is to maximise the chances for each entry. This increases interest and participation. The way to do this is to have a judges' prize (at least 3 judges) and a popular vote prize. This also answers the need for people to respond according to their preference for technique and style, if they wish. Judges might, for example and in a particular contest, feel that a composite most successfully and memorably captures the theme, while voters might prefer a more " straight" entry. In other words, it enhances the possibility of inclusiveness, which I think is a sign of maturity in a present-day photography contest.
People want to have the full set of entries to vote on and not some fraction of them vetted by a couple of people who might keep reappearing through a series of contests.
Two winners per contest separately chosen. Much more fun as well. Polls are fun! The excitement of waiting to see who the judges will give their prize to is fun! I am also interested in the two points of view, judges' and popular, and would prefer these two have their natural and logical outcome in two separate prizes.
Having to have a "Voting Member" level of membership to be eligible to vote in a contest safeguards against the opportunistic recruitment of casual registrations solely to increase the chances of winning of a particular entrant.
My suggestion that the judges prize be monetary and the popular vote prize "in kind" is also to discourage this kind of hustling, while giving entrants the chance of a very desirable prize.
I'm jumping in here a little late, but I really think this sounds good. I like that you are planning to mix up the rules from time to time.
I'd like to suggest a mix of single themes, dual themes, and assignments. The dual themes were really interesting, but sometimes the simplicity of a single theme, or a specific assignment would be good.
Overall, variety is good.
Prizes should be kept small too. Get just the people who want to compete for the fun of it and the growth. The LPS prizes were great (and I would have loved to get one of them) but the high stakes definitely attract extra complaining.
i will never trust public voting, theres always somebody that can network thier way to a win....
i would much rather lose to the fact that 2 or three judges hated my entry, rather than lose to somebody that works in a call center or corporate environment were one can muster votes.....
i will never trust public voting, theres always somebody that can network thier way to a win....
i would much rather lose to the fact that 2 or three judges hated my entry, rather than lose to somebody that works in a call center or corporate environment were one can muster votes.....
What if to vote you have to have voting membership based on a minimum number of posts to DGrin forums, eg 30?
Comments
<o:p></o:p>
Rounds last for a total of 3 weeks. Two weeks of shooting and then one week allowed for judging and feedback.
*** Too intense for most people's comfort level, I think.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Since our main goals are growth, input/opinions may be sought during the shooting period. Feedback from each other is STRONGLY encouraged during the judging week following the entry deadline.
*** Yes, of course! And after the winner announcement...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
At the end of the shooting period, there will be two judges, consisting of the previous round winner and one other randomly selected person (might be a moderator, any one of you or someone totally outside the group). These judges will each select their top ten, in no particular order. They are required to give brief feedback on each of their selected finalists.
Selected finalists (up to 20) then go to a public vote for placement (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.). The winner will receive the prize, but only after judging the following round.
*** = no trust?
<o:p></o:p>*** No, don't like, for reasons described earlier. Two winners separately chosen. Much more fun as well. Polls are fun! The excitement of waiting to see who the judges will give their prize to is fun! I am also interested in the two points of view, judges' and popular, and would prefer these two have their natural and logical outcome in two separate prizes. Otherwise, the "overlooked" by the judges have no chance, and the popular vote then further overshadows the whole judges' process. Some repeatedly "unsuccessful" entrants in the first stage of judging might begin to despair that they can never get past the vetting by the (2!) judges - too restricted a range of opinion for a critical stage. Worse if there is also a repeated winner who is also a repeated judge! Is this the way to encourage variety, experiment, risktaking?
<o:p></o:p>
What do you all think??? Oh, and PLEASE keep the theme ideas rolling! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/mwink.gif" border="0" alt="" >
*** Would like to see the rules for entry and voting. A lot depends on them and they were pretty woeful for LPS.
*** Strikes me as too piecemeal again - the awkward shared judging/prizegiving especially. Simplicity and clear consistency is needed, along with maximised opportunity to succeed with entries that have a chance because there are two judging processes and two prizes .
*** Neil
BTW What in the "already pretty much pinned down" reflects the input you asked for in this thread?
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
I really think that the "no bitching or else" provision needs to be clearly stated so as to avoid repetition of the past. Judging is final, period. Start moaning and you are out of the contest and/or suspended from the forum. Mods and judges already have enough on their plate from donating their time to the contest.
Whatever is decided, I am looking forward to the contest, even if I never come up with anything good enough to enter!!!<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/wings.gif" border="0" alt="" >
I also think it would be good to have an extra judge, perhaps a 'featured pro' which changed every so often.
I think we need to make sure the prizes are globally accessible, as DGrin is a global forum with contributors all over the world. e.g - a photography workshop in the U.S wouldnt work unless it became an 'all expenses paid' situation.
I like the idea of starting the next contest after the first one ends, even while the feedback/critique is being given, as this keeps everything moving.
I also like the idea of dual theme for two weeks, then a single theme for the next week. Especially if the dual themes were content related and the single theme may be related to the way you shoot it/process it (e.g b&w or straight out of camera)
Just my 2c
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- I think the three weeks pace is a pretty good compromise. I understand it may be a bit fast for some, but you don't have to enter every time anyway. I'd hate for it to be much slower. I think the week break is a very good thing to try. It could prove boring if we don't get enough participation but I hope instead it will promote more critique and community discussion. I think we should be ready to drop the third week or alter the format as necessary to ensure the third week proves useful to the community.
- I like the default "anything goes" approach to entry rules (re: composites, photoshop) and occasional "themes" like "straight from the camera" or what not would be fun and break folks from their routines. I have to respectfully disagree with Neil on making the rules more specific (although I actually like his rules). I don't think more rules will reduce contraversy in any meaningful way, no matter what rules you set there will always someone who thinks an entry doesn't meet their definition of a "photo". Rules are fine, but I think too many of them puts more of a burden on the moderators and judges than it is worth. Keep the rules very simple and loose.
- One thing I very, VERY much think the new contests should have is a tiered approach like LPS did. I really, REALLY want to have something like a periodic unthemed semi-final (or final) round. This provides two things I consider important. First, an occasional showcase of the "best" photographers which makes for a very high quality set of photos. Second, by going unthemed we can see photos that have a creative length of much longer than two weeks (even if they were only acquired in the two weeks of the SF) - this can also up the quality/creativity of the photos. I like the limited entry nature of the SF round, it is a bit of prize in itself to be allowed to participate. A contest with no theme and limited to people who have already won a "qual" also really creates a new level of challenge for those participating and I think again is its own reward. The SFs should be at a max four times a year. I don't see a need for a "final" tier like in LPS. Just an every so often unthemed limited entry contest to mix things up.
- I'm a little concerned with the judging. I think it is great to force the previous winner to participate, good for spreading out the work. I'm not sure the other judge should be "random". I think the task of the second judge should be spread among the community, and ideally among a subset of the community willing to take the time and put in the effort required. Furthermore I think these folks should be able to volunteer which contests they want to judge based on their schedule and perhaps their preferrence for a given theme. My biggest concern on the judging is that we somehow make sure the judges aren't exposed to some of the childishness that came up in LPS. More than once judges were berated for "not doing it right" by folks who had no cause to complain. I had thought perhaps of having anonymous judges. This causes some complication (e.g. winners wouldn't judge the very next competition but one in the near future so people wouldn't know exactly who did which contest) and sadly breaks a bit of the concept of a community (it would be nice for judges to give their input openly, of course in an anon case they could have the option to identify themselves). In any case, I think some thought needs to be given to insulating the judges and other moderators from some of the uglier parts of the community.
- I disagree strongly on forcing judges to critique every single photo entered. The job will be hard enough. If people want critique they can submit to the community at large and ask for it.
- Public voting is good and should occur at some point. Whether it is on every contest from a selection of the top photos selected by the judges or just on SF like rounds doesn't much matter to me, but at some point community members should participate by voting.
- Some sort of small prize would be nice. Perhaps if it was small prizes on every contest rather than big $ prizes on SFs and finals it would remove a bit of ugliness? I really don't have a strong feeling on the prizes, especially if they end up being more trouble than they are worth, but a modest "attaboy" prize I think would be a nice thing.
- Loved the dual themes, but I don't think necessarily every contest needs to be done that way (though I wouldn't mind).
Again, thanks for taking the time! Anxiously awaiting a new challenge.
Ken
why do you want to change it? Stop buying yourself
time! Get the next LPS out!
― Edward Weston
I've entered a few of the LPS rounds (when I had time), and I liked what I did, so I'm looking forward to the contests starting up.
I've stayed out of the composite/ps argument in the past because I didn't want to contribute to a flame war. But, now that constructive opinions are solicited, I'm going to throw in my two cents.
I think that the digital medium allows for a certain level of compositeness, but the trick comes in some sort of moderation. I think the line comes when the photo is of one subject, composited in a way to overcome a technical limitation of photography in a way that is only easily possible in the digital medium. For example I think that panoramas, HDRs, and focus stacked images should be allowed becaue they are all of the same subject and over come a technical limitation (finite focal length, small dynamic range, finite depth of field). I'm also OK with masking and cloning elements out, or even color changing, selective color, split toning, etc. Adjustments to a single photo (local or global) all fall under standard processing that we all do. The key to the restrictions I would place are that they all must come from photos of the same subject, no blue screening of models into scenes, etc. (Also, this would also allow things like triptiches (sp?).)
Lastly, I would make this the case for almost all rounds, but would allow some rounds to stretch this, but in general, it would be a photography contest primarily, and allow photoshop contests on occasion.
Also, I would much prefer month long contests (perhaps overlapped?) as it would give people that don't have tonnes of free time a chance to iterate and improve over the contest. With LPS I often had one day to try and get out and get a shot that met the theme that I was happy with, hence my lack of participation. I'd have one week to think about it, then a single weekend to get the shot basically.
-r
"what i think should be allowed" opinions.....
~post-processing is part of digital photography period.
why should the question even come up about if they used photoshop too much or to little....jeez....
if it were a film contest would we limit the darkroom time, and only allow certin chems?
why dont we just start suggesting that we are only allowed to point our camera west, or use manual focus only, or better yet, we must use auto mode so not to make things unfair....we would hate to have the M mode uses have more tools....
yes, im done with my tizzie....
what i liked from LPS
making members top-10s was a joy to me that someone enjoyed my little shot....
doing my own top-10 to show those that i enjoyed theirs...
also, C&C helping from one to another to tweak entries before the judging...
alot can be learned just watching that unfold....
what i didnt like....
voting in the final stages, there should be judges only...period
but mostly, not knowing who the whiners were that ruined LPS....
I really liked the dual themes and would hope that at least some rounds are dual themed, but I wouldn't object to a periodic break from the dual theme (a very broad single theme perhaps). One of the best things about dual theme is that it guarantees variety in the entries. For example, every picture in a black/white single theme would of course be black and white.
For judging, I liked that there were multiple judges and they were different each round. I would suggest that there be maybe 2-3 guest judges each round and one constant judge each round - the popular vote - so the community opinion is always counted. One thing that might eliminate favorites would be the submissions are posted without the authors names, but that might be too much trouble for the mods.
My stance on post processing would be that any ammount is allowed with the understanding that it can help you win or help you lose based solely on the judges' preferences.
I assume that the prizes were part of the motivation for people to complain, so I would be fine without them. The growth of photography is the best prize of all.
I like the suggestion of a week after each contest solely for critiques - I think that was one of the best things about LPS was all the feedback.
I like the suggestion of larger resolution for the entries so we can enjoy these outstanding sumissions in their full detail.
The open rounds were my least favorite to participate in because they were too "open" for me, heh.
I imagine "rules lawyering" will happen whether we have thorough and exhaustive rules or hardly any rules. I would hope that maybe keeping the rules light might also help keep the overall mood of the thing light.
Finally, thanks in advance to Greensquared, the mods and everyone else who is planning on dedicating their personal time to make this possible.
I like it. Now what do you mean by theme ideas?
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First, thanks for taking this effort on. Here are my comments in no particular order...
Just my few cents.
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Neil
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1) Dual Themes to start every two weeks. Judging & Voting at the start of the next round. This voting should ONLY last one week.
2) Constructive Feedback can be left by all members under each submision. Along with a place to list public comments on moaning after the contest ends.
3) Constructive feedback,if possibly, on ALL SUBMITED PHOTOS by judges.
4) prizes limited to 1,2,3 place photos. Some type of credit to SM, gift certificate to local or online photo stores... etc.
5) Keep the RULES simple and fair --
Gil
Kill Nothing But Time :clap
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Dual, single, restricted, wide open? Something completely different and outside of the box that we haven't even considered? A theme around the themes? Groups of themes, such as "the next three rounds will be within the limit of black and white" or 3 rounds of portrait, 3 rounds of nature, 3 rounds of street photog, 3 rounds of close-up/macro, 3 rounds of sports, and so on. These are the types of ideas we really want to work on. Maybe simple is best? What would appeal to you all that haved participated in the past, as well as newcomers. Maybe we can find a way to pull in others from the other forums within Dgrin.
Here's some theme ideas - theme "D", theme "G", theme "R", theme "I" , and theme "N"!
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
Portrait, Street Photography, UrbEx, Product Photos (of something you choose), Landscape, etc.
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these ideas are exciting to me.
Hmm... I would like it more open than this. I mean really do you want to look at 100 portraits 3 contests in a row?? Than follwed by 100 sport photos 3 weeks in a row?? There are already categories where you can do this if you so choose.
I think the contest is best when the theme allows all of the said categories to be able to be used to fit the theme.
Example: Water or vapor
Sports= Swimming- An athlete sweating- the fuel vapor of a dragster
Portrait= Washing a face- Blowing smoke-
Macro= Water droplets on a flower- items being dropped into a liquid and making a splash
Nature: Fish- Bird Catching a Fish
Landscape: Waterfall- Ocean- Lake
and so on......
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
So, maybe it's just a plug for my interests, ok it is... hehe. But, I never feel like I can have a shot because everyone only wants color. I love color, but have a true passion for monochromes. Hence, I don't ever feel like I have a shot at being seriously considered.
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Yes
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I personally felt more challenged during the LPS series with the 2 week schedule. I spent the first week planning and the second week shooting and doing PP. To me the time constraint made it more challenging; concept, plan, shoot, edit, and post all in a short period (ok maybe I'm an adrenaline junkie or something.)
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"The point in life isn't to arrive at our final destination well preserved and in pristine condition, but rather to slide in sideways yelling.....Holy cow, what a ride."
2. One challenege every month instead of every fortnight
3. Let there be public voting on 10 images chosen by the judge(s)
4. All 10 get prizes(40$ smuggie credit) and the winner can get bigger credit
5. Have this for 10 months. At the end, the shortlisted people(atmost 100) can participate in grand finale. Again out of maximim 100 images judges choose and people vote.
The last grand finale step is optional and we can have 12 disjointed contests.
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Various pieces of Canon gear.
Yes, one per month is fairer for everyone. The hardcase junkies will be irritated but they won't be excluded, as many busy-with-other-things folk will be if the time is shorter!
I can see the possibility of dissatisfaction developing with the shared voting idea, especially with the 2 judges limit. The "overlooked" by the judges have no further chance, and the popular vote then further overshadows the whole judges' process. In other words, the judges' judging becomes meaningless except as a way of vetting the entries since it doesn't directly produce a winner. Some repeatedly "unsuccessful" entrants in the first stage of judging might begin to despair that they can ever get past the vetting by the (2!) judges (too restricted a range of opinion for a critical stage). Worse if there is also a repeated winner who is also a repeated judge! Is this the way to encourage variety, experiment, risktaking?
What is needed is to maximise the chances for each entry. This increases interest and participation. The way to do this is to have a judges' prize (at least 3 judges) and a popular vote prize. This also answers the need for people to respond according to their preference for technique and style, if they wish. Judges might, for example and in a particular contest, feel that a composite most successfully and memorably captures the theme, while voters might prefer a more " straight" entry. In other words, it enhances the possibility of inclusiveness, which I think is a sign of maturity in a present-day photography contest.
People want to have the full set of entries to vote on and not some fraction of them vetted by a couple of people who might keep reappearing through a series of contests.
Two winners per contest separately chosen. Much more fun as well. Polls are fun! The excitement of waiting to see who the judges will give their prize to is fun! I am also interested in the two points of view, judges' and popular, and would prefer these two have their natural and logical outcome in two separate prizes.
Having to have a "Voting Member" level of membership to be eligible to vote in a contest safeguards against the opportunistic recruitment of casual registrations solely to increase the chances of winning of a particular entrant.
My suggestion that the judges prize be monetary and the popular vote prize "in kind" is also to discourage this kind of hustling, while giving entrants the chance of a very desirable prize.
Neil
http://www.behance.net/brosepix
I'd like to suggest a mix of single themes, dual themes, and assignments. The dual themes were really interesting, but sometimes the simplicity of a single theme, or a specific assignment would be good.
Overall, variety is good.
Prizes should be kept small too. Get just the people who want to compete for the fun of it and the growth. The LPS prizes were great (and I would have loved to get one of them) but the high stakes definitely attract extra complaining.
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i would much rather lose to the fact that 2 or three judges hated my entry, rather than lose to somebody that works in a call center or corporate environment were one can muster votes.....
What if to vote you have to have voting membership based on a minimum number of posts to DGrin forums, eg 30?
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