Thanks Sean.
That link seems to take me to a discussion on 'branding'.
P
It actually discusses both. Albeit briefly.
All I can do is speak to where I personally see borders and frames. The original intent was to let an image stand on its own. There certainly are times when a border, heavy vignette, frame or other similar treatment will enhance the artistic intent and or statement. In other cases a frame will attract a lot of attention to itself and actually take away from the image or intended message. The main point in instituting the rule was to guide the artist to show the message behind the photo without having to use a border to augment it.
Being a very open minded person I have actually created themes where a border or frame was a requirement so it is not like I personally hate them. I have been known to use them in my own work many times.
In the future to avoid confusion the rule will be clarified to be: All frames and borders whether they are natural or artificial will disqualify an entry unless the round allows the inclusion of one.
It will still be up to the moderator to make a final decision on if something fits within that definition or not.
I have been known to use them in my own work many times.
Thanks! - having never used frames before I'm not too concerned about the rulemaking/decision making for the challenges, but wanted to understand what frames (added OR natural) do to help/hinder an image.
The your explanation in your reply to Froch was most helpful.
Ok...gonna bring this up because its been kinda bugging me. Might be a mute point for others. I have been entering in to these challenges since 2008 and although it is not written in the rules there once was a discussion about titles not having the actual 'theme' word(s) in it. This was back when Llewellen was moderator I believe.
Now I realize we have a whole new group of people doing these challenges, but I would like to put this out there. The image should be strong enough without a title, to convey the theme. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a challenge right? The title is just gravy, but should not try and sell the image as being on theme by using the name. I hope I am explaining this right.
I will be honest here. I have not voted for anyone who uses the title to sell the picture as being on theme. Even if it is a great shot. That is just my thing. So what do you all think? Should we get back to that basic "Make the picture speak for itself"? After all...that is what makes these challenges challenging! That really makes a person have to work at getting a wow picture that really screams the theme.
I have grown alot in my photography when that "unwritten rule" was discussed because it pushed me to not rely on words to make the image strong. So lets hear it...good or bad idea?
although it is not written in the rules there once was a discussion about titles not having the actual 'theme' word(s) in it.
As one of the newbies, I'd be fine with the rule -- but it's hard to know what all those unwritten rules are! For example, I was trying to figure out what the stance was on voting for yourself in the challenges. I managed to google up some threads from 2008 that left it ambiguous.
This is the first I've heard of the "no theme in the title" rule. I'd be happy to play by the unwritten rules, if I knew what they were! Can one of the old-timers toss them out there for us?
The goal of my photography is is the effective, original communication of a feeling expressing truth, beauty, or love.
As one of the newbies, I'd be fine with the rule -- but it's hard to know what all those unwritten rules are! For example, I was trying to figure out what the stance was on voting for yourself in the challenges. I managed to google up some threads from 2008 that left it ambiguous.
This is the first I've heard of the "no theme in the title" rule. I'd be happy to play by the unwritten rules, if I knew what they were! Can one of the old-timers toss them out there for us?
It's not a rule-- think of it as good advice from seasoned pros.
It's not a rule-- think of it as good advice from seasoned pros.
Well said!
Based on the number of entries that used it in their titles this time around, I think it's safe to assume that most were not aware of that topic from long ago. I agree that it's best to avoid using it, but I think it would be ashame not to vote for an image because they used it, if the image otherwise moves you, just saying...
I don't think it needs to be a rule, but maybe stressed somewhere in the rules that it is discouraged? That's my 2 cents!
Karin
"Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth." — Mark Twain
Ok...gonna bring this up because its been kinda bugging me. Might be a mute point for others. I have been entering in to these challenges since 2008 and although it is not written in the rules there once was a discussion about titles not having the actual 'theme' word(s) in it. This was back when Llewellen was moderator I believe.
Believe me, I thought of that a lot this round and fully realized it could cost votes. I couldn't seem to come up with anything else that worked as a title for me... but I struggled with this one all the way around.
As one of the newbies, I'd be fine with the rule -- but it's hard to know what all those unwritten rules are! For example, I was trying to figure out what the stance was on voting for yourself in the challenges. I managed to google up some threads from 2008 that left it ambiguous.
This is the first I've heard of the "no theme in the title" rule. I'd be happy to play by the unwritten rules, if I knew what they were! Can one of the old-timers toss them out there for us?
First I've heard of the title thing, if all agree then just make it a written rule, but if the image is supposed to portray the theme by itself, then why have titles at all?
First I've heard of the title thing, if all agree then just make it a written rule, but if the image is supposed to portray the theme by itself, then why have titles at all?
It's not and shouldn't be a written rule. Listen, Stephen King does not put the word "scary" or "horror" in his titles; nor did Dashiell Hammett put "mystery" in his.* There's a reason for this. Let your picture tell the theme, let your title compel interest.
And if you're really stuck, or you have a great title that happens to have the theme in it, don't sweat it.
*Although I wish he kept the title Poisonville instead of Red Harvest.
I will be honest here. I have not voted for anyone who uses the title to sell the picture as being on theme. Even if it is a great shot....
Please do not misread what I wrote. I sometimes will vote for a image even if it does have the theme in the title, if the image definately screams the theme without the title. However if the image relies on the title to make it fit into the theme, then I will not vote for it because the image cannot stand alone without the title. That is just the way I do it. No one else has to do it that way. I am very critical when it comes to voting and I hold my pictures up to the same standard as I do everyone elses. I use to be an art teacher so this is just a skill that I have learned and maintained over the years.
NOt that I am trying to mess things up here I am just trying to suggest we get back to some of the basics so that other newbies can better themeselves too.
Another unwritten rule that we use to do is that if one person shoots a picture for a theme and puts it in the album, and another has a very simular picture, the second person would reshoot out of respect that the first person already came up with the idea. But that is also just a curtosy thing.
It really makes you think outside of the box! Just saying.
Thanks for the information...RUSH was only my second entry, so I had not yet heard of or seen any such discussion. Ironically, I thought just the opposite and assumed it was appropriate and/or encouraged to try and get the theme into the title. So on my first two entries, I forced the theme name into the title, even though I did think that both photos represented their themes well on their own. Thanks for liberating me. These challenges have been fun! I'm glad I found you guys.
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,976moderator
edited April 5, 2011
Looking Back and Looking Forward
Joyce, thank you for sharing your thoughts on all this. Like other newer members, it is the first I have heard of this unwritten rule but it makes sense to me. I do appreciate a good title and the way it can help the viewer understand a more unusual take on the theme, but can also see the value of trying to avoid including the words of the theme in the title.
Perhaps it would be helpful to have some suggestions appended to the challenge rules - providing the rationale behind them? When I first saw JAG's post I decided to look back at some of the early posts in this thread and found something Greensquared wrote several years ago: "Remember to try and not use the theme as your title. Be creative with it, as it can really help push your shot further." She expressed the hope that the image would stand on its own with minor help from a title, if necessary. I think this is in essence what JAG and MarkR are suggesting as well.
Let your picture tell the theme, let your title compel interest. And if you're really stuck, or you have a great title that happens to have the theme in it, don't sweat it.
I am happy to go along with whatever folks want to do. One can have hard and fast rules or advice/suggestions for dgrin challenges - unwritten rules that wouldn't disqualify someone who didn't follow them. I trust the folks who have been here longer to know what might work best to keep this forum a fun, comfortable place for us all to grow as photographers.
Btw, the etiquette of public voting was already a given in my mind, and I quickly picked up on the example others set when they articulated choosing another concept because another photographer was clearly working on it (as demonstrated by an entry or pictures in a discussion thread). Thank you for making this a welcoming place for photographers at all levels of experience and expertise!
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,976moderator
edited April 5, 2011
Major grins, big grins, other grins
On another topic altogether, I am curious about "major grins", "big grins", etc. I know that I can change what shows up there (and I did so long ago), but wondered if these are defaults and how they are generated - if that makes sense.
I was actually surprised at first that we HAVE to have a title. After all, if the photo speaks for itself, shouldn't it not need a title?
Certainly a good title can sometimes add, but why not make titles optional?
Also -- did it used to be that you only got one vote? I would certainly see the no-voting-for-yourself rule in that case. It's less clear to me that you would never find your own photo in the top, say, third of entries.
Still, the value I've gotten out of the challenges has been, well, in challenging me to take a different kind of photo than I usually do. And that's a good thing whether I get any votes or not!
The goal of my photography is is the effective, original communication of a feeling expressing truth, beauty, or love.
Titles are not optional because coming up with a title that enhances your image is part of what makes a good image an even greater one. Plus I certainly would not like to see 40 pictures all called "untitled" or people referring to an image ..." you know the one with that red shoe on the side of the road", even though I'm sure that happens anyway.
The idea of no title at all is a good one for a specific round though. That I may decide to make as a requirement in one round but I certainly would not want this to be the norm.
On another topic altogether, I am curious about "major grins", "big grins", etc. I know that I can change what shows up there (and I did so long ago), but wondered if these are defaults and how they are generated - if that makes sense.
I am not sure about this one, it is possible that if left alone and not edited it changes based on how many posts a person has. What those levels are is not known to me though.
I am not sure about this one, it is possible that if left alone and not edited it changes based on how many posts a person has. What those levels are is not known to me though.
My guess is it changes from Big Grins to Major Grins at 100 posts. I poked through a few old posts and found Major Grins as low as 127 posts and Big Grins as high as 63 posts. I've been a member for 3 years and I have 19 posts now, so at that rate I'll be able to let you know for sure some time in 2024ish.
sapphire73Registered Users, Super ModeratorsPosts: 1,976moderator
edited April 6, 2011
Thanks for your input on the major grins, big grins, etc. I figured something must be triggering the changes and number of posts makes sense. On my way to New Zealand now....
When I tested the voting style that we are using now, the majority of feedback was all for it. In fact the main reason it was even changed was because it was requested several times by several people.
Everyone seemed to want:
1. The ability to vote for more than one person.
2. To be part of the decision making process and not only be given 10 out of the group to vote for.
3. Give all participants a way to receive feedback.
With the new public vote we have achieved all three and more. I personally feel there is a lot of merit in a public forum allowing that same userbase to give it's peers feedback via a vote from everyone.
We always have had a public voting component. Even back in the days of LPS. What we have now is just an expanded version of it. Popularity contest? Maybe to a point, but personally all I see are the images that should win, being recognized for what they are. Winners!
When I tested the voting style that we are using now, the majority of feedback was all for it. In fact the main reason it was even changed was because it was requested several times by several people.
Everyone seemed to want:
1. The ability to vote for more than one person.
2. To be part of the decision making process and not only be given 10 out of the group to vote for.
3. Give all participants a way to receive feedback.
With the new public vote we have achieved all three and more. I personally feel there is a lot of merit in a public forum allowing that same userbase to give it's peers feedback via a vote from everyone.
We always have had a public voting component. Even back in the days of LPS. What we have now is just an expanded version of it. Popularity contest? Maybe to a point, but personally all I see are the images that should win, being recognized for what they are. Winners!
There isn't one thing wrong with the new voting, I just preferred the other. If that's what everybody wants that's fine it's just a change and sometimes change is harder for some than for others.
You do a fantastic job as moderator and your ideas are brilliant. I am just old and use to old voting. That's all. Not
trying to make it more than it is.
I do however agree about the titles. My brother always told me that an image should stand on it's own.
I wasn't here in the old days, so I can't say how I liked the old way. But one of the things I really like about the public voting for all the images is that I can get feedback from others on my stuff. The C&C discussions are invaluable, but lots of people don't post there yet still vote. It's a nice way to gauge the broader appeal of my photos, and serves as useful feedback.
The goal of my photography is is the effective, original communication of a feeling expressing truth, beauty, or love.
Comments
It actually discusses both. Albeit briefly.
All I can do is speak to where I personally see borders and frames. The original intent was to let an image stand on its own. There certainly are times when a border, heavy vignette, frame or other similar treatment will enhance the artistic intent and or statement. In other cases a frame will attract a lot of attention to itself and actually take away from the image or intended message. The main point in instituting the rule was to guide the artist to show the message behind the photo without having to use a border to augment it.
Being a very open minded person I have actually created themes where a border or frame was a requirement so it is not like I personally hate them. I have been known to use them in my own work many times.
In the future to avoid confusion the rule will be clarified to be: All frames and borders whether they are natural or artificial will disqualify an entry unless the round allows the inclusion of one.
It will still be up to the moderator to make a final decision on if something fits within that definition or not.
Thanks! - having never used frames before I'm not too concerned about the rulemaking/decision making for the challenges, but wanted to understand what frames (added OR natural) do to help/hinder an image.
The your explanation in your reply to Froch was most helpful.
Jake
Now I realize we have a whole new group of people doing these challenges, but I would like to put this out there. The image should be strong enough without a title, to convey the theme. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a challenge right? The title is just gravy, but should not try and sell the image as being on theme by using the name. I hope I am explaining this right.
I will be honest here. I have not voted for anyone who uses the title to sell the picture as being on theme. Even if it is a great shot. That is just my thing. So what do you all think? Should we get back to that basic "Make the picture speak for itself"? After all...that is what makes these challenges challenging! That really makes a person have to work at getting a wow picture that really screams the theme.
I have grown alot in my photography when that "unwritten rule" was discussed because it pushed me to not rely on words to make the image strong. So lets hear it...good or bad idea?
I totally agree with you Joyce! but.... If we disqualified for using the theme name in the title it would be a mighty empty gallery this time around.
As one of the newbies, I'd be fine with the rule -- but it's hard to know what all those unwritten rules are!
This is the first I've heard of the "no theme in the title" rule. I'd be happy to play by the unwritten rules, if I knew what they were!
www.photographyjones.com
It's not a rule-- think of it as good advice from seasoned pros.
Well said!
Based on the number of entries that used it in their titles this time around, I think it's safe to assume that most were not aware of that topic from long ago. I agree that it's best to avoid using it, but I think it would be ashame not to vote for an image because they used it, if the image otherwise moves you, just saying...
I don't think it needs to be a rule, but maybe stressed somewhere in the rules that it is discouraged? That's my 2 cents!
"Dance like no one is watching. Sing like no one is listening. Love like you've never been hurt and live like it's heaven on Earth." — Mark Twain
Believe me, I thought of that a lot this round and fully realized it could cost votes. I couldn't seem to come up with anything else that worked as a title for me... but I struggled with this one all the way around.
My SmugMug
I can help with the voting for yourself one... Etiquette on Public Voting. (I actually knew that was listed in the Dgrin Sharp Shooters Challenge Rules).
My SmugMug
Smugger for life!
Most Popular Photos
It's not and shouldn't be a written rule. Listen, Stephen King does not put the word "scary" or "horror" in his titles; nor did Dashiell Hammett put "mystery" in his.* There's a reason for this.
And if you're really stuck, or you have a great title that happens to have the theme in it, don't sweat it.
*Although I wish he kept the title Poisonville instead of Red Harvest.
Please do not misread what I wrote. I sometimes will vote for a image even if it does have the theme in the title, if the image definately screams the theme without the title. However if the image relies on the title to make it fit into the theme, then I will not vote for it because the image cannot stand alone without the title. That is just the way I do it. No one else has to do it that way. I am very critical when it comes to voting and I hold my pictures up to the same standard as I do everyone elses. I use to be an art teacher so this is just a skill that I have learned and maintained over the years.
NOt that I am trying to mess things up here I am just trying to suggest we get back to some of the basics so that other newbies can better themeselves too.
Another unwritten rule that we use to do is that if one person shoots a picture for a theme and puts it in the album, and another has a very simular picture, the second person would reshoot out of respect that the first person already came up with the idea. But that is also just a curtosy thing.
It really makes you think outside of the box! Just saying.
Joyce, thank you for sharing your thoughts on all this. Like other newer members, it is the first I have heard of this unwritten rule but it makes sense to me. I do appreciate a good title and the way it can help the viewer understand a more unusual take on the theme, but can also see the value of trying to avoid including the words of the theme in the title.
Perhaps it would be helpful to have some suggestions appended to the challenge rules - providing the rationale behind them? When I first saw JAG's post I decided to look back at some of the early posts in this thread and found something Greensquared wrote several years ago: "Remember to try and not use the theme as your title. Be creative with it, as it can really help push your shot further." She expressed the hope that the image would stand on its own with minor help from a title, if necessary. I think this is in essence what JAG and MarkR are suggesting as well.
I am happy to go along with whatever folks want to do. One can have hard and fast rules or advice/suggestions for dgrin challenges - unwritten rules that wouldn't disqualify someone who didn't follow them. I trust the folks who have been here longer to know what might work best to keep this forum a fun, comfortable place for us all to grow as photographers.
Btw, the etiquette of public voting was already a given in my mind, and I quickly picked up on the example others set when they articulated choosing another concept because another photographer was clearly working on it (as demonstrated by an entry or pictures in a discussion thread). Thank you for making this a welcoming place for photographers at all levels of experience and expertise!
My SmugMug Galleries
On another topic altogether, I am curious about "major grins", "big grins", etc. I know that I can change what shows up there (and I did so long ago), but wondered if these are defaults and how they are generated - if that makes sense.
My SmugMug Galleries
Certainly a good title can sometimes add, but why not make titles optional?
Also -- did it used to be that you only got one vote? I would certainly see the no-voting-for-yourself rule in that case. It's less clear to me that you would never find your own photo in the top, say, third of entries.
Still, the value I've gotten out of the challenges has been, well, in challenging me to take a different kind of photo than I usually do. And that's a good thing whether I get any votes or not!
www.photographyjones.com
The idea of no title at all is a good one for a specific round though. That I may decide to make as a requirement in one round but I certainly would not want this to be the norm.
I am not sure about this one, it is possible that if left alone and not edited it changes based on how many posts a person has. What those levels are is not known to me though.
My guess is it changes from Big Grins to Major Grins at 100 posts. I poked through a few old posts and found Major Grins as low as 127 posts and Big Grins as high as 63 posts. I've been a member for 3 years and I have 19 posts now, so at that rate I'll be able to let you know for sure some time in 2024ish.
My SmugMug Galleries
Mildly bemused at 10,000+....
Jeff
-Need help with Dgrin?; Wedding Photography Resources
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I second that but let me explain. I think
the challenges you come up with are awesome
I just don't like the new voting style.
Just my two cents.
peace, gail
PS. I was wondering about all the titles having the challenge name in them to.
Glad you brought it up Joyce.
Everyone seemed to want:
1. The ability to vote for more than one person.
2. To be part of the decision making process and not only be given 10 out of the group to vote for.
3. Give all participants a way to receive feedback.
With the new public vote we have achieved all three and more. I personally feel there is a lot of merit in a public forum allowing that same userbase to give it's peers feedback via a vote from everyone.
We always have had a public voting component. Even back in the days of LPS. What we have now is just an expanded version of it. Popularity contest? Maybe to a point, but personally all I see are the images that should win, being recognized for what they are. Winners!
There isn't one thing wrong with the new voting, I just preferred the other. If that's what everybody wants that's fine it's just a change and sometimes change is harder for some than for others.
You do a fantastic job as moderator and your ideas are brilliant. I am just old and use to old voting. That's all. Not
trying to make it more than it is.
I do however agree about the titles. My brother always told me that an image should stand on it's own.
Peace, gail
www.photographyjones.com
That's certainly not it. I'm not a "contender" by any stretch.
I don't know what I miss. The excitement? The newness? The prizes? The judge's critique?
LPS was not sustainable for all of the above reasons and I really like DSS. It's just . . . different.
And that's okay, too!
Sean, you're a rockstar. I hope my comment didn't offend.
I thought this one was definitely a contender: