Relax & enjoy the journey! (on all points)
Jenn, I can't imagine feeling "rejected" because someone doesn't give your photo a glowing critique. Nobody is trying to hurt feelings; I believe we are all here to learn, to share photos, to help each other, and hopefully to enjoy the process. I am thankful for nice critiques, but learn so much from the more critical ones, even if I have to do research to find out what someone meant or why a comment was made the way it was. Many times I understand what they're saying and agree, and other times I don't agree. All the comments are people's opinions, and it's up to you as the artist/photographer to determine which opinions will most help your entry to be as you envisioned it - or how you want others to envision it.
A comment on my entry this time was that they wished I would have used my first entry without the toning. The toning was what I really liked about that photo (I thought it was "creamy"). Different opinions. No right, no wrong. And I'm still happy with my entry & will be regardless of any polls. There have been many times when I have not been able to understand what others see in a particular photo that I don't really like (like the old wrinkly person with 3 teeth in an impoverished setting - everybody seems to like those shots but me), & countless other times when I like a photo nobody else seems to like. As mentioned above (by SeascapeS), different people see things differently, remember things differently, feel things differently, and will comment quite differently on the same photo. Different perspectives based on different experiences and individual preferences.
I see these challenges as a way to expand and learn photographically, but also a way to open my mind to different views, both artistically and personally - I appreciate that others have a different perspective than mine, whether I agree with them or not. My goal is to enter a photo that I really like & feel good about. I was dead last in the last challenge I entered, but I really loved my photo and wouldn't change it for anything. If my goal were only to win, I'd be very disappointed and it would be no fun. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind winning, it's just that I enjoy the journey of transforming my photo into something that I, and hopefully others, will find pleasing and which speaks the theme (not an easy task). And FYI - I took 768 photos this time to get my one entry (thank goodness for digital!!).
The Mini challenges are a much more relaxed environment, allowing you to enter 3 images and dig through your archives to find the best ones too. Try entering some mini challenges for awhile maybe?
Tried it ... I don't know how they can pick just one best image. Just about every image entered there makes you want to vote for it to win.
We have heard time and time again from you Jenn that you get discouraged; we get that. My recommendation is to keep developing your skills as a photographer and just play for the sheer fun of it. I am certainly not telling you that it is wrong to get discouraged, by all means it is a human trait that we experience it. What I am saying is you have been very clear now and in the past that you get that way. I think it is time to move past it and learn to have fun with photography instead of focusing on all of the negative aspects of it.
I appreciate and understand what you're saying... but I'm trying to communicate that the advice people give, (which often is conflicting), when posting an image in a thread is often confusing and as I've been told it's also subjective, which causes frustration on my part because I'm trying to take the advice given with what seems like little success. It would be nice if one expert could give solid help and advice that I could follow so I could see some sort of tangible improvement on any of my submitted images. Trying to guess who's advice is the best to take isn't working so good for me as I don't see that any of my images have improved despite trying to take submitted advice.
1. Do this for yourself
2. Do this for fun.
3. Do this to learn.
4. Yes, you will get differing opinions. That's because it is subjective and we all think differently.
5. There can only be one winner.
6. Try to make it a challenge for yourself and not a challenge against everyone else. That's the fun part.
7. Disappointment is normal - been there. But the best part is that the next challenge is already beginning. Don't look back - look ahead.
I realize all of that is true, Seascape ... if anything, I'm disappointed in myself because I keep trying and I have no idea if I'm improving and nothing to gauge whether I am or not. I haven't given up yet, tho ... Posts like yours makes me want to keep trying.
I am thankful for nice critiques, but learn so much from the more critical ones,
While I feel the same way, I'm finding it more confusing because there's no concensus at any one time. I'm probably too goal oriented, but that's my life ... set a goal... and find a way to meet that goal. I haven't met the goal yet and I don't know how to meet it... I just know I want to.
It would be nice if one expert could give solid help and advice that I could follow
If you found this so called "expert" it would still only be one opinion. Two other experts would have a totally different opinion. What your asking for is black and white answer. You will never find that answer when it comes to artistic opinion, the answer is always full of gray and depending on the mood of the person it might be full of color.
What I find most distressing about your dissatisfaction with all the people in this forum trying there best to help you, is that you continually discount their opinions. Isn't an expert someone who has "experience"? A good many of the DSS participants have been entering rounds for years for the sheer joy and fun of it. I believe that makes them all "experts". At least experts at willing to pass on there experience.
I am growing weary of trying impress upon you that we are all more than willing to help. But that help seems to be lost within your spiral of verbal disappointment and feeling sorry for yourself.
.......we are all more than willing to help. But that help seems to be lost within your spiral of verbal disappointment and feeling sorry for yourself.
Someone earlier expressed it well,when they cautioned not to be tied to the results. expectations! Caution, Caution! Your expectations Will let you down, and no one else!
While I feel the same way, I'm finding it more confusing because there's no concensus at any one time. I'm probably too goal oriented, but that's my life ... set a goal... and find a way to meet that goal. I haven't met the goal yet and I don't know how to meet it... I just know I want to.
Whats the goal? Winning? then what? winning again? Okay, then?
Oh, there is a consensus. Thats how we find the winner. Take responsibility for your entries Jenn. No one is going to tell you what to shoot, how to get there, etc. If they did, it'd be theirs. They didn't even do that in kindergarten, which is why I can't draw a straight line! And speaking of Kindergarten. Have you ever noticed the genius of a child's handiwork at art? I have, and they blow me away with it!
Personally I know this is all tied to your expectations. Once you are able to conquer those, your freedom to express will be like child's play.
Your road to success starts any time you want it to. As soon as you topple the wall of defense, the wall of creation can and will begin!
If you found this so called "expert" it would still only be one opinion. Two other experts would have a totally different opinion. What your asking for is black and white answer. You will never find that answer when it comes to artistic opinion, the answer is always full of gray and depending on the mood of the person it might be full of color.
What I'm asking for isn't impossible or difficult.
What I find most distressing about your dissatisfaction with all the people in this forum trying there best to help you, is that you continually discount their opinions.
I actually try to implement what people suggest and have done so every time I've had people offer suggestions, so I am not discounting their opinions at all. I'm expressing that it is confusing knowing who to listen to when I'm trying to learn something new.
No ... an expert, imo, has professional experience generally for many years. I was suggesting, as an addition, that someone with that sort of experience would give more consistent help to someone like me trying to learn and sort through all the 'information' being suggested.
A good many of the DSS participants have been entering rounds for years for the sheer joy and fun of it. I believe that makes them all "experts". At least experts at willing to pass on there experience.
I don't know who they are, specifically.... meaning.. I just know nicknames at the moment.
I am growing weary of trying impress upon you that we are all more than willing to help. But that help seems to be lost within your spiral of verbal disappointment and feeling sorry for yourself.
On the contrary ... I've listened to everyone and tried to alter my images as they've suggested. I'm sorry you feel 'weary', but I'm not asking for the impossible... I'm asking for additional help from a specific professional that I can get consistant direction to follow because I've been frustrated trying to follow so many different suggestions and not feeling as if I'm achieving any success. I have no problem asking for more help, and letting people know I'm struggling. The other choice is to pretend I'm happy with my current progress when I'm not.
Whats the goal? Winning? then what? winning again? Okay, then?
The goal is to see some sort of gain ... progress ... improvement.. something tangible so I know I'm going in the right direction. Eventually, winning would be an indicator of progress. Currently, there is no other indicator of progress or improvement for me to even know if I'm doing anything right.
Take responsibility for your entries Jenn. No one is going to tell you what to shoot, how to get there, etc. If they did, it'd be theirs.
Actually, a few people did tell me what to shoot and how to set it up. I tried to do what they suggested and it didn't feel like it was my own. That's not what I'm wanting.
They didn't even do that in kindergarten, which is why I can't draw a straight line! And speaking of Kindergarten. Have you ever noticed the genius of a child's handiwork at art? I have, and they blow me away with it!
I've raised 3 kids and usually their art was art only a mother will love... I still have some paper flowers one of my kids made me for mothers day.
Personally I know this is all tied to your expectations. Once you are able to conquer those, your freedom to express will be like child's play.
I do put expectations on myself.. I suppose I'm harder on me than other people are at times, but it's always been that way. If I don't expect anything from myself... I won't achieve anything. Right now, I'd just like to see some improvement or at least understand where I've improved, if at all! If not... figure out how to get there.
No ... an expert, imo, has professional experience generally for many years. I was suggesting, as an addition, that someone with that sort of experience would give more consistent help to someone like me trying to learn and sort through all the 'information' being suggested...
... I'm asking for additional help from a specific professional that I can get consistant direction to follow b
This sounds (IMO) like the definition of a "teacher"... and I don't think anyone is one this forum in the capacity of a "teacher"... just as a group of individuals that enjoy photography and have fun with it and usually enjoy helping each other out however they can.
Teachers are out there... there are photography schools... classes at community colleges... local photography clubs have speakers and classes... there is even a forum here on dgrin geared towards helping you learn some things (http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10).
I agree with Sean that someone with experience is an expert. Your definition of expert would cost money.
Basically Jenn, imo, you are the only one I have seen complaining about this and the world does not revolve around you alone. I have tried to understand, but I have given up on even commenting on your photos. All it gets anyone is rude comments back. ( I know you are just being "honest" and saying "how you feel", but it comes across as rude) I have seen great progress in your photos, but while you ask for help and occasionally use the suggestions, for the most part you don't like or agree with the suggestions given.
ok, That is the last I will say on any of it. I will not comment again or read anymore so that I can keep my calm.
I have tried to understand, but I have given up on even commenting on your photos. All it gets anyone is rude comments back. ( I know you are just being "honest" and saying "how you feel", but it comes across as rude) I have seen great progress in your photos, but while you ask for help and occasionally use the suggestions, for the most part you don't like or agree with the suggestions given.
It is not my intent to offend anyone at all... I often don't understand people's comments... why, for example ...shadows are bad when I see shadows on other images. I like shadows.
I do put expectations on myself.. I suppose I'm harder on me than other people are at times, but it's always been that way. If I don't expect anything from myself... I won't achieve anything.
Since I think your expectations are the culprit, I'll focus there.
You're right!! In expecting something of yourself. Perhaps it is what you are expecting that is the source of ill. How forgiving of yourself are you? Do you allow yourself to screw up? Do you still think you are wonderful when you do?
Forgive me for interjecting/transferring my own towards you. My expectations of me:
1. .....crap I need to think on this...because I have so few!
Okay, forget that!
I absolutely, over the top love some of my work, that others wouldn't look at twice! I guarantee it!
You and I talked "PM" about my entry and you yourself asked me, and I quote; "So what does the face in your photo have to do with the theme?", Remember my reply? "all I can say to that is, it is my take on the theme with Lace!"
SO expectations. Yes, I expected you liked my photo. But when you asked such a question as that one, I did what I do, I said how I felt about it. My expectation is you will like it. Caveat, I have to let go of the result, in case you don't like it! That doesn't make my photo bad. It just means Jenn doesn't like it, or doesn't get it, or some-such. That is not your fault. And when I do that, it releases both of us from any issue regarding my photo and your take on it.
So I go into this diatribe, just trying to ask you to ask yourself about how you allow yourself to be. I know you work, but do you play?
So very many of us work, work, work all our lives and forget totally how to play.
You obviously are serious about wanting to get this thing figured out. And that is commendable. Give yourself a break, recognize your special skills.
One Variable. There is but one variable I control: Me.
Since I think your expectations are the culprit, I'll focus there.
You're right!! In expecting something of yourself. Perhaps it is what you are expecting that is the source of ill. How forgiving of yourself are you? Do you allow yourself to screw up? Do you still think you are wonderful when you do?
hmmm I better be forgiving of myself, 'cuz I screw up all the time! Then I smack my hand and reprimand myself and give myself a good talking too so I'll do better next time. I suppose I shouldn't be smacking my own hand.. huh?
Forgive me for interjecting/transferring my own towards you. My expectations of me:
1. .....crap I need to think on this...because I have so few!
Okay, forget that!
I absolutely, over the top love some of my work, that others wouldn't look at twice! I guarantee it!
You and I talked "PM" about my entry and you yourself asked me, and I quote; "So what does the face in your photo have to do with the theme?", Remember my reply? "all I can say to that is, it is my take on the theme with Lace!"
Yeah ... I think I asked that because someone else told me that the face I put alongside one version of my lace image really didn't have anything to do with the subject of 'lace'... it might of been you who said that.. don't remember ....... but I asked you that question because I was trying to figure out why you're face was ok for the subject of lace, but my face with my lace was NOT good for the subject.
So I go into this diatribe, just trying to ask you to ask yourself about how you allow yourself to be. I know you work, but do you play?
So very many of us work, work, work all our lives and forget totally how to play.
Play?? ummmm uh ... hmmmmm does the internet count?
ARe the Challenges considered "a photo contest"?
I want to enter a photo in a contest. One of the rules is that it can't have been entered into a contest before. Are the Challenges considered a 'contest"? I would presume so, since there are rewards for winning and placing in the top 5, but since it is a 'members-only' thing, maybe it isn't.
>>I have no problem asking for more help, and letting people know I'm struggling. The other choice is to pretend I'm happy with my current progress when I'm not.
But it's not your "progress" you seem to be unhappy with. Jenn, whether you realise it or not, you come across as a sore loser. At the end of every challenge where you have not received the acclaim/attention you feel you deserve, you revisit this thread to complain about the results. That may not be your intention, but it is, however unfortunately, how it is perceived. If you are truly wanting to make progress, then listen to the feedback you get, universalize the CONCEPTS and apply them to your work.
As far as "who to listen to" - how about ALL of the suggestions, give them a try, see how they work out and then, afterwards you can retain the things that were helpful and ditch the rest. Often you can only know with hindsight what was useful, although MOST suggestions here at dgrin are valuable input, even if for a future project. Tuck the information away for future use.
Sean has been near-saintly in his patience. He - and many others - have tried to get across to you kindly and compassionately that this is an artistic pursuit which has no defined goal, which is subjective, which requires a willingness to change (instead of justify), an ability to accept that progress is incremental and often requires honest self-assessment as well as self-validation - rather than expecting validation in the form of prizes and pats on the back - and realising that technical progress is the only way to allow the kind of artistic expression you seem to desire.
If these are things you can neither accept nor understand then you are doomed to permanent disappointment and, frankly, being met with a wall of silence as people give up trying to help.
I truly hope that you can get yourself past this roadbloack - you will find you enjoy your photography and the challenges a great deal more.
All the very best,
DM
ETA: I missed Tom's post before I responded and will add: he has many words of wisdom there - listen to him!!!!!!
At the end of every challenge where you have not received the acclaim/attention you feel you deserve, you revisit this thread to complain about the results. That may not be your intention, but it is, however unfortunately, how it is perceived.
No ... I don't come back to this thread at the end of every challenge to complain. My question I posted a couple days ago{"I was wondering if there could be separate challenges for amateurs? Competing against professional photographers is getting very discouraging for me."} elsewhere was moved here to this thread, yesterday. I haven't been back to this thread since July, sometime. I didn't even notice some comments directed to me in July, so I responded to them yesterday.
I want to enter a photo in a contest. One of the rules is that it can't have been entered into a contest before. Are the Challenges considered a 'contest"? I would presume so, since there are rewards for winning and placing in the top 5, but since it is a 'members-only' thing, maybe it isn't.
What do you think?
Chris
I think not -this hole thing started as fun and to learn, it's a dgrin or a dfrown thing like some say those pros are winning and not me:cry. I think you are good to go
I want to enter a photo in a contest. One of the rules is that it can't have been entered into a contest before. Are the Challenges considered a 'contest"? I would presume so, since there are rewards for winning and placing in the top 5, but since it is a 'members-only' thing, maybe it isn't.
What do you think?
Chris
Hi Chris I moved your question to the General discussion.
I personally would consider the DSS challenges a contest but really the question should be directed at the people who are running the other contest you want to enter since it really is their decision how they would classify it.
No ... I don't come back to this thread at the end of every challenge to complain. My question I posted a couple days ago{"I was wondering if there could be separate challenges for amateurs? Competing against professional photographers is getting very discouraging for me."} elsewhere was moved here to this thread, yesterday. I haven't been back to this thread since July, sometime. I didn't even notice some comments directed to me in July, so I responded to them yesterday.
No you do not come back to this thread. What you do is post in the current theme thread or the feedback thread. I try and move discussions that are of a general nature into the "General Discussion" thread to keep things cleaner and more on track.
So yes it was moved, because this is where is should be.
Jenn, I agree with most of the feedback that has been given in this thread.
Sean is right that there is no one expert, nor is there one right way.
Since you are having difficulty figuring out who to listen to or, more accurately, who's advice is going to help you move in the desired direction... here's what I suggest.
Go back through the last few challenge galleries. Pick out a style, composition, feeling, feature or techinical aspect that makes you say...I'd like to be able to do that. It fits my style. It's in the direction that I want to go in."
Then look at each image and write down what it is that you like about it. The color scheme, the processing, the folksy feel, the techno feel, the composition, the story....whatever rocks you about that photo. If you decide, for example, that the composition and story are the things that grab you...then go back through your last few entries and ask yourself, how could I have told this story better or how could I have improved my composition.
The key is finding what you like and being able to describe it to yourself.
If you ask us a specific question like...'I was trying to make this photo feel lonely, what could I do to enhance that feeling?' then you will get specific suggestions. You can try each one and see if they move your photo in the direction you want to go. Keep the suggestions that work . Make a note of who gave you the advice. Is it a photographer that you admire? Do you find that they're advice helps you each time? Then listen to them.
Get rid of your own expectations and just go with it. Try all sorts of stuff and sit back aand explain to yourself what you like and don't like. Keep a journal. Only check your progress a couple of times a year. compare your new stuff with stuff from a year ago, not with last week's stuff.
I joined this forum with my first DSLR about a year ago. I couldn't see my progress from week to week. But when I look back to a year ago, I can see some progress. Most of us are amateurs and will be for the rest of our lives. As long as it's fun, who cares?
My final word is..... when I took up playing golf, I shot 144 (the maximum number of stokes that you can record in 18 holes). Everyone that I played with gave me advice. some was helpful; some wasn't. I picked the things that helped. Within my first year I actually shot a 103. The point is that I loved being a beginner because everyone was helpful, no one minded if i made mistakes. I got to make progress on my own schedule, eventho some of my friends are pros.
do it because you love it.
Asking the generic, how do I improve? will get you exactly where you are now....confused. Each of us improves by diffferent means.
Keep trying to find your style, learn new things and shoot new ideas. You can do this if you stop getting in your own way. Go with the flow of your own self.
What I'm asking for isn't impossible or difficult. I'm asking for additional help from a specific professional that I can get consistant direction to follow because I've been frustrated trying to follow so many different suggestions and not feeling as if I'm achieving any success. I have no problem asking for more help, and letting people know I'm struggling. The other choice is to pretend I'm happy with my current progress when I'm not.
Jenn - take some photography courses. Then you can get the one-on-one feedback and specific instruction that you desire.
Go back through the last few challenge galleries. Pick out a style, composition, feeling, feature or techinical aspect that makes you say...I'd like to be able to do that. It fits my style. It's in the direction that I want to go in."
Then look at each image and write down what it is that you like about it. The color scheme, the processing, the folksy feel, the techno feel, the composition, the story....whatever rocks you about that photo. If you decide, for example, that the composition and story are the things that grab you...then go back through your last few entries and ask yourself, how could I have told this story better or how could I have improved my composition.
The key is finding what you like and being able to describe it to yourself.
If you ask us a specific question like...'I was trying to make this photo feel lonely, what could I do to enhance that feeling?' then you will get specific suggestions. You can try each one and see if they move your photo in the direction you want to go. Keep the suggestions that work . Make a note of who gave you the advice. Is it a photographer that you admire? Do you find that they're advice helps you each time? Then listen to them.
do it because you love it.
Asking the generic, how do I improve? will get you exactly where you are now....confused. Each of us improves by diffferent means.
Keep trying to find your style, learn new things and shoot new ideas. You can do this if you stop getting in your own way. Go with the flow of your own self.
Chris
I guess I have no idea what my style is because I just try to meet the requirements .. take a picture in focus of such and such and edit it so it makes a good image. By Style... do you mean "The color scheme, the processing, the folksy feel, the techno feel, the composition, the story"? So, I look for that sort of stuff that inspires me?
The other thing you mentioned was about telling the story. I'm a bit of a short story/allegory type writer and sometimes I'll create graphics to go along with my stories... it's been a while since I've had time to do that, tho. So, I should try to tell a story with the image... using the style that inspires me .... I think that's the hardest part for me to do simply by taking a photo. I like taking pictures of nature more than people, and it's kind of hard to tell a story taking a picture of a tree turning it's fall colors... or flowers in bloom .. or sunsets... How do I tell a story when no people are in the image? I'm not sure how to do that...
You also said to ask specific questions like...'I was trying to make this photo feel lonely, what could I do to enhance that feeling?' It didn't even cross my mind to ask those sort of questions, but it makes alot of sense.
Jenn - take some photography courses. Then you can get the one-on-one feedback and specific instruction that you desire.
ahh.. that would be nice ... but a luxury at this time. Work is priority for now, anyway. If I'm going to learn something, I have to do it on my own.. as in ... no school.
ahh.. that would be nice ... but a luxury at this time. Work is priority for now, anyway. If I'm going to learn something, I have to do it on my own.. as in ... no school.
I would advise you to submit your "Lace" photo here and see what you get:
I want to enter a photo in a contest. One of the rules is that it can't have been entered into a contest before. Are the Challenges considered a 'contest"? I would presume so, since there are rewards for winning and placing in the top 5, but since it is a 'members-only' thing, maybe it isn't.
What do you think?
Chris
I think if I was a judge, and I found out your image had been submitted to a Dgrin challenge, I would consider it a contest and disqualify it.
Jenn - take some photography courses. Then you can get the one-on-one feedback and specific instruction that you desire.
Was thinking this myslef about two pages back.
That, or meet up with someone with more experience. I went shooting at night with only two other photographers I found on dgrin, and although neither sell their work (I don't think), both have more experience and I learned a lot. A professional in a camera store might have some tips on how to achieve results with your equipment, but the art is all in your head.
ahh.. that would be nice ... but a luxury at this time. Work is priority for now, anyway. If I'm going to learn something, I have to do it on my own.. as in ... no school.
That sounds interesting. I'll have to read more on their website this weekend when I can get some more time. I don't think I can make a meet up this weekend, but I'll check into the group. My daughter, SIL, and grandbaby are moving back here to Tulsa and will be staying with us for a short while til they get settled into jobs and find an apt, so I may not have any time to do the Oct 23 meetup either. Possible after they find their own place I'll be free to do something with that group. It sure sounds like a possibility. Thanks, Donna
I've looked through various threads for How to add someones image to your comment but as a smaller size and I can't find it anywhere. If it was simple html code I could do it .. but it's different with these dgrin tags. Anyone know where the thread is that has that info, or how to do that?
I've looked through various threads for How to add someones image to your comment but as a smaller size and I can't find it anywhere. If it was simple html code I could do it .. but it's different with these dgrin tags. Anyone know where the thread is that has that info, or how to do that?
Comments
Jenn, I can't imagine feeling "rejected" because someone doesn't give your photo a glowing critique. Nobody is trying to hurt feelings; I believe we are all here to learn, to share photos, to help each other, and hopefully to enjoy the process. I am thankful for nice critiques, but learn so much from the more critical ones, even if I have to do research to find out what someone meant or why a comment was made the way it was. Many times I understand what they're saying and agree, and other times I don't agree. All the comments are people's opinions, and it's up to you as the artist/photographer to determine which opinions will most help your entry to be as you envisioned it - or how you want others to envision it.
A comment on my entry this time was that they wished I would have used my first entry without the toning. The toning was what I really liked about that photo (I thought it was "creamy"). Different opinions. No right, no wrong. And I'm still happy with my entry & will be regardless of any polls. There have been many times when I have not been able to understand what others see in a particular photo that I don't really like (like the old wrinkly person with 3 teeth in an impoverished setting - everybody seems to like those shots but me), & countless other times when I like a photo nobody else seems to like. As mentioned above (by SeascapeS), different people see things differently, remember things differently, feel things differently, and will comment quite differently on the same photo. Different perspectives based on different experiences and individual preferences.
I see these challenges as a way to expand and learn photographically, but also a way to open my mind to different views, both artistically and personally - I appreciate that others have a different perspective than mine, whether I agree with them or not. My goal is to enter a photo that I really like & feel good about. I was dead last in the last challenge I entered, but I really loved my photo and wouldn't change it for anything. If my goal were only to win, I'd be very disappointed and it would be no fun. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind winning, it's just that I enjoy the journey of transforming my photo into something that I, and hopefully others, will find pleasing and which speaks the theme (not an easy task). And FYI - I took 768 photos this time to get my one entry (thank goodness for digital!!).
A photograph is an artistic expression of life, captured one moment at a time . . .
http://bartlettphotoart.smugmug.com/
I appreciate and understand what you're saying... but I'm trying to communicate that the advice people give, (which often is conflicting), when posting an image in a thread is often confusing and as I've been told it's also subjective, which causes frustration on my part because I'm trying to take the advice given with what seems like little success. It would be nice if one expert could give solid help and advice that I could follow so I could see some sort of tangible improvement on any of my submitted images. Trying to guess who's advice is the best to take isn't working so good for me as I don't see that any of my images have improved despite trying to take submitted advice.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
I realize all of that is true, Seascape ... if anything, I'm disappointed in myself because I keep trying and I have no idea if I'm improving and nothing to gauge whether I am or not. I haven't given up yet, tho ... Posts like yours makes me want to keep trying.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
If you found this so called "expert" it would still only be one opinion. Two other experts would have a totally different opinion. What your asking for is black and white answer. You will never find that answer when it comes to artistic opinion, the answer is always full of gray and depending on the mood of the person it might be full of color.
What I find most distressing about your dissatisfaction with all the people in this forum trying there best to help you, is that you continually discount their opinions. Isn't an expert someone who has "experience"? A good many of the DSS participants have been entering rounds for years for the sheer joy and fun of it. I believe that makes them all "experts". At least experts at willing to pass on there experience.
I am growing weary of trying impress upon you that we are all more than willing to help. But that help seems to be lost within your spiral of verbal disappointment and feeling sorry for yourself.
Someone earlier expressed it well,when they cautioned not to be tied to the results. expectations! Caution, Caution! Your expectations Will let you down, and no one else!
Whats the goal? Winning? then what? winning again? Okay, then?
Oh, there is a consensus. Thats how we find the winner. Take responsibility for your entries Jenn. No one is going to tell you what to shoot, how to get there, etc. If they did, it'd be theirs. They didn't even do that in kindergarten, which is why I can't draw a straight line! And speaking of Kindergarten. Have you ever noticed the genius of a child's handiwork at art? I have, and they blow me away with it!
Personally I know this is all tied to your expectations. Once you are able to conquer those, your freedom to express will be like child's play.
Your road to success starts any time you want it to. As soon as you topple the wall of defense, the wall of creation can and will begin!
I actually try to implement what people suggest and have done so every time I've had people offer suggestions, so I am not discounting their opinions at all. I'm expressing that it is confusing knowing who to listen to when I'm trying to learn something new.
No ... an expert, imo, has professional experience generally for many years. I was suggesting, as an addition, that someone with that sort of experience would give more consistent help to someone like me trying to learn and sort through all the 'information' being suggested.
I don't know who they are, specifically.... meaning.. I just know nicknames at the moment.
On the contrary ... I've listened to everyone and tried to alter my images as they've suggested. I'm sorry you feel 'weary', but I'm not asking for the impossible... I'm asking for additional help from a specific professional that I can get consistant direction to follow because I've been frustrated trying to follow so many different suggestions and not feeling as if I'm achieving any success. I have no problem asking for more help, and letting people know I'm struggling. The other choice is to pretend I'm happy with my current progress when I'm not.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
That's wonderful for the winner because they know they have improved.. they know they've made progress...
Actually, a few people did tell me what to shoot and how to set it up. I tried to do what they suggested and it didn't feel like it was my own. That's not what I'm wanting.
I do put expectations on myself.. I suppose I'm harder on me than other people are at times, but it's always been that way. If I don't expect anything from myself... I won't achieve anything. Right now, I'd just like to see some improvement or at least understand where I've improved, if at all!
hmmm food for thought .. thanks..
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
This sounds (IMO) like the definition of a "teacher"... and I don't think anyone is one this forum in the capacity of a "teacher"... just as a group of individuals that enjoy photography and have fun with it and usually enjoy helping each other out however they can.
Teachers are out there... there are photography schools... classes at community colleges... local photography clubs have speakers and classes... there is even a forum here on dgrin geared towards helping you learn some things (http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10).
I agree with Sean that someone with experience is an expert. Your definition of expert would cost money.
Basically Jenn, imo, you are the only one I have seen complaining about this and the world does not revolve around you alone. I have tried to understand, but I have given up on even commenting on your photos. All it gets anyone is rude comments back. ( I know you are just being "honest" and saying "how you feel", but it comes across as rude) I have seen great progress in your photos, but while you ask for help and occasionally use the suggestions, for the most part you don't like or agree with the suggestions given.
ok, That is the last I will say on any of it. I will not comment again or read anymore so that I can keep my calm.
Good Luck to you.
My SmugMug
It is not my intent to offend anyone at all... I often don't understand people's comments... why, for example ...shadows are bad when I see shadows on other images. I like shadows.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
Since I think your expectations are the culprit, I'll focus there.
You're right!! In expecting something of yourself. Perhaps it is what you are expecting that is the source of ill. How forgiving of yourself are you? Do you allow yourself to screw up? Do you still think you are wonderful when you do?
Forgive me for interjecting/transferring my own towards you. My expectations of me:
1. .....crap I need to think on this...because I have so few!
Okay, forget that!
I absolutely, over the top love some of my work, that others wouldn't look at twice! I guarantee it!
You and I talked "PM" about my entry and you yourself asked me, and I quote; "So what does the face in your photo have to do with the theme?", Remember my reply? "all I can say to that is, it is my take on the theme with Lace!"
SO expectations. Yes, I expected you liked my photo. But when you asked such a question as that one, I did what I do, I said how I felt about it. My expectation is you will like it. Caveat, I have to let go of the result, in case you don't like it! That doesn't make my photo bad. It just means Jenn doesn't like it, or doesn't get it, or some-such. That is not your fault. And when I do that, it releases both of us from any issue regarding my photo and your take on it.
So I go into this diatribe, just trying to ask you to ask yourself about how you allow yourself to be. I know you work, but do you play?
So very many of us work, work, work all our lives and forget totally how to play.
You obviously are serious about wanting to get this thing figured out. And that is commendable. Give yourself a break, recognize your special skills.
One Variable. There is but one variable I control: Me.
I'm cracking up here!!
Yeah ... I think I asked that because someone else told me that the face I put alongside one version of my lace image really didn't have anything to do with the subject of 'lace'... it might of been you who said that.. don't remember
Play?? ummmm uh ... hmmmmm does the internet count?
I got special skills?? Help me out here ... What's it rhyme with?
thanks, Tom! You helped alot.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
I want to enter a photo in a contest. One of the rules is that it can't have been entered into a contest before. Are the Challenges considered a 'contest"? I would presume so, since there are rewards for winning and placing in the top 5, but since it is a 'members-only' thing, maybe it isn't.
What do you think?
Chris
When you come to a door... walk through it.
If it's locked... find an open window.
But it's not your "progress" you seem to be unhappy with. Jenn, whether you realise it or not, you come across as a sore loser. At the end of every challenge where you have not received the acclaim/attention you feel you deserve, you revisit this thread to complain about the results. That may not be your intention, but it is, however unfortunately, how it is perceived. If you are truly wanting to make progress, then listen to the feedback you get, universalize the CONCEPTS and apply them to your work.
As far as "who to listen to" - how about ALL of the suggestions, give them a try, see how they work out and then, afterwards you can retain the things that were helpful and ditch the rest. Often you can only know with hindsight what was useful, although MOST suggestions here at dgrin are valuable input, even if for a future project. Tuck the information away for future use.
Sean has been near-saintly in his patience. He - and many others - have tried to get across to you kindly and compassionately that this is an artistic pursuit which has no defined goal, which is subjective, which requires a willingness to change (instead of justify), an ability to accept that progress is incremental and often requires honest self-assessment as well as self-validation - rather than expecting validation in the form of prizes and pats on the back - and realising that technical progress is the only way to allow the kind of artistic expression you seem to desire.
If these are things you can neither accept nor understand then you are doomed to permanent disappointment and, frankly, being met with a wall of silence as people give up trying to help.
I truly hope that you can get yourself past this roadbloack - you will find you enjoy your photography and the challenges a great deal more.
All the very best,
DM
ETA: I missed Tom's post before I responded and will add: he has many words of wisdom there - listen to him!!!!!!
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
I think not -this hole thing started as fun and to learn, it's a dgrin or a dfrown thing like some say those pros are winning and not me:cry. I think you are good to go
“PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE ‘JAZZ’ FOR THE EYES…”
http://jwear.smugmug.com/
Hi Chris I moved your question to the General discussion.
I personally would consider the DSS challenges a contest but really the question should be directed at the people who are running the other contest you want to enter since it really is their decision how they would classify it.
No you do not come back to this thread. What you do is post in the current theme thread or the feedback thread. I try and move discussions that are of a general nature into the "General Discussion" thread to keep things cleaner and more on track.
So yes it was moved, because this is where is should be.
Sean is right that there is no one expert, nor is there one right way.
Since you are having difficulty figuring out who to listen to or, more accurately, who's advice is going to help you move in the desired direction... here's what I suggest.
Go back through the last few challenge galleries. Pick out a style, composition, feeling, feature or techinical aspect that makes you say...I'd like to be able to do that. It fits my style. It's in the direction that I want to go in."
Then look at each image and write down what it is that you like about it. The color scheme, the processing, the folksy feel, the techno feel, the composition, the story....whatever rocks you about that photo. If you decide, for example, that the composition and story are the things that grab you...then go back through your last few entries and ask yourself, how could I have told this story better or how could I have improved my composition.
The key is finding what you like and being able to describe it to yourself.
If you ask us a specific question like...'I was trying to make this photo feel lonely, what could I do to enhance that feeling?' then you will get specific suggestions. You can try each one and see if they move your photo in the direction you want to go. Keep the suggestions that work . Make a note of who gave you the advice. Is it a photographer that you admire? Do you find that they're advice helps you each time? Then listen to them.
Get rid of your own expectations and just go with it. Try all sorts of stuff and sit back aand explain to yourself what you like and don't like. Keep a journal. Only check your progress a couple of times a year. compare your new stuff with stuff from a year ago, not with last week's stuff.
I joined this forum with my first DSLR about a year ago. I couldn't see my progress from week to week. But when I look back to a year ago, I can see some progress. Most of us are amateurs and will be for the rest of our lives. As long as it's fun, who cares?
My final word is..... when I took up playing golf, I shot 144 (the maximum number of stokes that you can record in 18 holes). Everyone that I played with gave me advice. some was helpful; some wasn't. I picked the things that helped. Within my first year I actually shot a 103. The point is that I loved being a beginner because everyone was helpful, no one minded if i made mistakes. I got to make progress on my own schedule, eventho some of my friends are pros.
do it because you love it.
Asking the generic, how do I improve? will get you exactly where you are now....confused. Each of us improves by diffferent means.
Keep trying to find your style, learn new things and shoot new ideas. You can do this if you stop getting in your own way. Go with the flow of your own self.
Chris
When you come to a door... walk through it.
If it's locked... find an open window.
Jenn - take some photography courses. Then you can get the one-on-one feedback and specific instruction that you desire.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
I guess I have no idea what my style is because I just try to meet the requirements .. take a picture in focus of such and such and edit it so it makes a good image. By Style... do you mean "The color scheme, the processing, the folksy feel, the techno feel, the composition, the story"? So, I look for that sort of stuff that inspires me?
The other thing you mentioned was about telling the story. I'm a bit of a short story/allegory type writer and sometimes I'll create graphics to go along with my stories... it's been a while since I've had time to do that, tho. So, I should try to tell a story with the image... using the style that inspires me .... I think that's the hardest part for me to do simply by taking a photo. I like taking pictures of nature more than people, and it's kind of hard to tell a story taking a picture of a tree turning it's fall colors... or flowers in bloom .. or sunsets... How do I tell a story when no people are in the image? I'm not sure how to do that...
You also said to ask specific questions like...'I was trying to make this photo feel lonely, what could I do to enhance that feeling?' It didn't even cross my mind to ask those sort of questions, but it makes alot of sense.
Thanks....Chris
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
ahh.. that would be nice ... but a luxury at this time. Work is priority for now, anyway. If I'm going to learn something, I have to do it on my own.. as in ... no school.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
I would advise you to submit your "Lace" photo here and see what you get:
http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30
* Make sure you read the rules first
PS: here too:
http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44
TravelwaysPhotos.com ...... Facebook
VegasGreatAttractions.com
Travelways.com
I think if I was a judge, and I found out your image had been submitted to a Dgrin challenge, I would consider it a contest and disqualify it.
That, or meet up with someone with more experience. I went shooting at night with only two other photographers I found on dgrin, and although neither sell their work (I don't think), both have more experience and I learned a lot. A professional in a camera store might have some tips on how to achieve results with your equipment, but the art is all in your head.
Jake
A photography group in Tulsa is having a meetup tomorrow in case you are interested... http://www.meetup.com/Tulsa-Digital-Photography-Group/calendar/14925942/
(sounds fun, I wish I wasn't so far)
My SmugMug
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
thanks.....
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
I think this might be what your after
It's in the quick links sticky thread at the top, for the mini challenges.
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=168929
That's it! I must have looked at every page but that one.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6