I'm assuming smugmug really isn't intent on providing these features any time soon?
Define soon.
Soon is kinda a general statement for, "it's coming." But I've never seen it to imply any type of time schedule. With the recent screenshots posted by Baldy, I have a strong belief we'll see it by the end of the year, but don't hold me to that. I wonder if SM will answer questions like, "Will coupons be available by Jan 1, 2010?" Since our businesses have time schedules upon which we make decisions, an answer like this can help someone with their individual decision on a feature.
I'm assuming smugmug really isn't intent on providing these features any time soon?
then why would be be investing time with me, with the president of our company, with the lead Sorcerer on this job, here in this thread, if we weren't 'interested' in providing this feature? The project is in the late stages, we know it's taken a 1000x longer than you and we wanted. We know we've tested your patience.
No, Samir, we're not saying a date. I'm sorry. As you can see, based on how pros will use coupons, there are always things that can cause additional work. But we're dedicated, committed and focused on getting coupons finished.
.. I wonder if SM will answer questions like, "Will coupons be available by Jan 1, 2010?" ...
Hi Samir - unfortunately not. Like Apple, SM makes no predictive statements, and I can see why. If they were to miss a deadline, they would have more negative feedback to deal with.
I think we have to accept that coupons were delayed by the infrastructure issues that arose over the last few months. I think most would agree that number one is always a well functioning site, which shows and sells photos smoothly.
I am just building my photo biz, and coupons would be great to have. I check this thread regularly, and am excited by what is coming. I think that we'll see them before the end of the year. But that is just a hunch.
Hi Samir - unfortunately not. Like Apple, SM makes no predictive statements, and I can see why. If they were to miss a deadline, they would have more negative feedback to deal with.
I must respectfully disagree as people will get more than frustrated when kept completely in the dark.
I understand in the beginning why a date is not given as a project my have unexpected issues creating delays.
Also, I am sure they do not want to tip off a competitor.
But as a project is coming near completion, a soft date is typically given. For example, Spring 2010. If they were even close to the testing phase, I think it is reasonable to provide that.
Some people think it must be close to release because of screen shots. Well, screen shots are some of the first things designed. So this is no indication.
I work closely with some software developers. When a feature is being developed, they have already mapped out a tentative release date internally. As the project is well underway, they only provide a general release date (i.e. Spring 2010) until they have some time with users working in it in beta. Once they have done some beta testing, a release date is set and announced.
Look, even Microsoft provides release dates. And yes, they have revised release dates if there is a problem. People may get irritated but they deal with it and adjust their own decisions as needed.
Personally, I think keeping us in the dark with no general release date is going to leave a long lasting bitter taste is so many mouths.
I just posted today about Zenfolio vs Smugmug about someone asking which to use. I provided a link to this discussion so the person can make an informed decision. I did point out the features strength of both the best I could. But I for one have developed a bitter taste for how things are progressing.
Yes, I feel like a child and Papa Smugmug is saying we will be there soon when the long drive is just half way over.
Oh, I know a date announcement is definitely out of the question. I was wondering if a photographer that needed X feature by such-and-such date could get a yes or no answer in private. Hypothetically speaking.
Why hasn't this been outsourced, at least temporarily? Smug outsources prints... why not outsource coupons? There must be companies with the ability to handle this.
Please don't mistake my blunt, pointed posts as my being "angry," "short," or "rude."
Why hasn't this been outsourced, at least temporarily? Smug outsources prints... why not outsource coupons? There must be companies with the ability to handle this.
Does that mean it'll be done in the next month or so? Or if you don't want to commit to a "done" date when it's done, how about a minimum "it definitely won't be done before..." date?
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Why hasn't this been outsourced, at least temporarily? Smug outsources prints... why not outsource coupons? There must be companies with the ability to handle this.
Because there's no way to outsource the internal infrastructure changes that are required to make coupons work.
When one adds new functionality to an existing software base, there's a need to design and create the code to implement the new functionality, and then there's all the changes to the existing code that's required in order to hook the new code in. Then the combined package needs to be tested to (a) make sure the new functionality works right, and (b) existing functionality hasn't been broken or "fixed" in error.
Writing the code for the new functionality can be pretty straight forward, depending on the spec, how good the developer is, and other supporting resources. However, tying the new code in with the existing code base requires knowledge of the existing system that can't be outsourced to a 3rd party on short notice. And if the pre-existing code base wasn't written with extensibility in mind and needs a large amount of re-working and testing, out-sourcing becomes a complete non-starter in all cases except for massive overhauls of the code base.
Now, while outsourcing is out of the question, one could reasonably ask why SM didn't put another developer on this when it was clear things were slipping instead of having BWG run himself into the ground working 16 hr days (and the diminishing returns that comes from such efforts) - but that's another discussion for another time.
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Hi Samir - unfortunately not. Like Apple, SM makes no predictive statements, and I can see why. If they were to miss a deadline, they would have more negative feedback to deal with.
I honestly don't see how they can get any more negative feedback than they are already getting. Similar thing has happened with the new Pocket Wizards for Nikon. They gave a release date, but then couldn't meet that deadline due to working on the Canon problems. They then gave a new release date. I would much rather have that then "it's coming soon." It has been over a year already and we've seen screen shots. I think a simple "by end of November", "before Christmas", "first quarter of 2010" isn't going to kill the company. You've already lost customers due to this specific upgrade, so why not through the rest of us that are hanging on a bone and at least give us an idea of when this upgrade will go live.
I know, I know...sorry we don't give out dates, but it's close.....
Randy Sportshooter Member
***********************
D3, D700, 24-70 f/2.8, 70-200 VR, 50 f1/8, 200-400 VR f/4, 300/2.8 VR, 400 f/2.8 VR, 85 f/1.8, TC-14E II, TC-17E II, Sigma 15/2.8 Fisheye, SB-900 (2), SD-9, SB-600, AB800 (2), misc. other stuff
From the day you are born, you are one day closer to death. It could be the next day or 100 years away.
If you think you are less than 3 to 6 months out, I think it would be reasonable to say so.
At this point, it is not so easy for me to switch. But I do not think I will recommend Smugmug to anyone . . . not with keep them in the dark, stall them philosophy. And when my account expires, I will do my best to switch.
I honestly don't see how they can get any more negative feedback than they are already getting.
I guess if SM said it'll be done by a specific date, and then some of the folks on this forum decide to hang on and not switch as some have repeatedly indicated they would if coupons aren't out by then-and-then, and then SM postpones, you'd hear from these people. They might accuse SM of giving a false date to discourage people from switching. Considering someone here has already suggested SM of something called lulling (if memory serves), this is not that far fetched.
If a date was given, then people would start planning accordingly - perhaps prepare marketing campaigns that use coupons (I know I have a couple ready) and plan on deploying them. A delay would then lead to acute frustration. As it is now, there is a general frustration, but no one can say "SM promised me this by this day, and have not come through".
Don't get me wrong - part of me wants a date too
But part of me accepts that if I was working for SM, I'd do it this way too.
Still - after the coupons come out, I am sure going to miss reading this thread!
??? You asked if it was "less than 3 to 6 months out" and he replied with "oh yes" - how is that not clear?
sigh... this thread is depressing - not because of the features we don't have, but because of the endless whining.
It is kind of like "whining" about your favorite sports team and how bad they are or how they keep doing stupid things...it gives us something to be passionate about:lol. I mostly come to dgrin just to read this thread!
Randy Sportshooter Member
***********************
D3, D700, 24-70 f/2.8, 70-200 VR, 50 f1/8, 200-400 VR f/4, 300/2.8 VR, 400 f/2.8 VR, 85 f/1.8, TC-14E II, TC-17E II, Sigma 15/2.8 Fisheye, SB-900 (2), SD-9, SB-600, AB800 (2), misc. other stuff
I see this as a put down on someone else's opinion. It's a free country and a relatively open forum. And you are free to express if you don't like someone else's opinion. But labeling someone else's opinion as "whining" shows a basic lack of respect. I'd like you to say that to someone's face. You're liable to walk away with less teeth.
I see this as a put down on someone else's opinion. It's a free country and a relatively open forum. And you are free to express if you don't like someone else's opinion. But labeling someone else's opinion as "whining" shows a basic lack of respect. I'd like you to say that to someone's face. You're liable to walk away with less teeth.
Threatening is no better,
You interpret his post as a lack of respect then close up your post with a threat?
This thread has been out of hand for a long time. I would suggest locking the thread down. Seriously, SM knows we need the feature, and we know its coming soon but that there will be no published due-date. What else is there to add?
This thread has been out of hand for a long time. I would suggest locking the thread down. Seriously, SM knows we need the feature, and we know its coming soon but that there will be no published due-date. What else is there to add?
We have a long history on Dgrin of not closing threads. I'm happy to allow continued discussion, but yeah, it must be kept civil.
You interpret his post as a lack of respect then close up your post with a threat?
I didn't mean that last line to sound as a threat, but more as a hypothetical on how these types of attitudes don't fly in real life. There are real consequences to taking "keyboard warrior" attitudes into real life. And I think dgrin strives to, for lack of a better term, "keep things real", to avert out-of-hand attitudes and maintain a sense of mutual respect among all the users. Namecalling is one sign of a lack of mutual respect. I'm surprised the community hasn't taken more offense to the namecalling.
I have to give kudos to the forum management staff on dgrin. It's not an easy task to maintain an environment like this one, especially on such a busy site like dgrin.
I see this as a put down on someone else's opinion. It's a free country and a relatively open forum. And you are free to express if you don't like someone else's opinion. But labeling someone else's opinion as "whining" shows a basic lack of respect. I'd like you to say that to someone's face. You're liable to walk away with less teeth.
I didn't mean that last line to sound as a threat, but more as a hypothetical on how these types of attitudes don't fly in real life. There are real consequences to taking "keyboard warrior" attitudes into real life. And I think dgrin strives to, for lack of a better term, "keep things real", to avert out-of-hand attitudes and maintain a sense of mutual respect among all the users. Namecalling is one sign of a lack of mutual respect. I'm surprised the community hasn't taken more offense to the namecalling.
I have to give kudos to the forum management staff on dgrin. It's not an easy task to maintain an environment like this one, especially on such a busy site like dgrin.
SamirD - Did I miss something?? I didn't call anybody any names and I'm certainly not a "keyboard warrior" so cool down. I've been on dgrin for 4+ years now and have never resorted to name-calling or personal attacks (feel free to read all my posts). Referring to the tone of some of the recent posts as "whining" is a far stretch from name-calling and your reaction was a bit harsh. I too am entitled to my opinion and I felt I expressed it in a way that didn't single anybody out as it wasn't directed at any particular person, rather the overall trend and tone of the thread. I'm certain you misunderstood the intent of my post and I'll be more careful in the future. I have complete respect for everyone here and don't want that to be misunderstood.
My point was simply to express that the comments recently have become less constructive (the point of the thread was to solicit *feedback*). It has been clear for some time that Andy is not going give release dates and no amount of prodding from us on dgrin will make this get done any faster.
I'll go back to lurking in this thread now as I'd hate to lose any teeth.
If you won't close this thread now, at least close it when coupons have been released and start a new one. This is getting out of hand.
-
They can close this one right after they close the "get ready to sell stock" thread, that one had over 2 years of uselessness, SmugStock never materialized.
SamirD - Did I miss something?? I didn't call anybody any names and I'm certainly not a "keyboard warrior" so cool down. I've been on dgrin for 4+ years now and have never resorted to name-calling or personal attacks (feel free to read all my posts). Referring to the tone of some of the recent posts as "whining" is a far stretch from name-calling and your reaction was a bit harsh. I too am entitled to my opinion and I felt I expressed it in a way that didn't single anybody out as it wasn't directed at any particular person, rather the overall trend and tone of the thread. I'm certain you misunderstood the intent of my post and I'll be more careful in the future. I have complete respect for everyone here and don't want that to be misunderstood.
I'll go back to lurking in this thread now as I'd hate to lose any teeth.
I didn't realize that by singling out your post, I was singling you out. Sorry about that.
There's several different posts by different users in all sorts of threads across the support section where some people call others "whiners" for their opinion. I was just trying to point out that by doing that, they are effectively namecalling and belittling the other users' opinions. I don't think this is what was conveyed in my previous posts. Sorry!
Said teeth knocking was just meant to be a comparison between online and real life etiquette, and how this belittling behavior in real life might have different reactions from different people. I didn't mean it to sound like an attack of any sort. I guess I needed to word it even more delicately than I did.
I'm just going sit like this the next time I see namecalling. I won't say anything about it again unless someone directs it towards me.
With the holidays approaching and the remote possibility of coupons being active by then, how would use the new feature in conjunction with the holiday season? Offer a special using a coupon? Give a credit for next year?
I was thinking of a special "Holiday sale" like 10% off $50, and 15% off $100, etc. Or maybe purchase $50, and get a credit for $5, purchase $100, get a credit for $15. What are some other creative ways to use the coupons/credits during the holidays?
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Soon is kinda a general statement for, "it's coming." But I've never seen it to imply any type of time schedule. With the recent screenshots posted by Baldy, I have a strong belief we'll see it by the end of the year, but don't hold me to that. I wonder if SM will answer questions like, "Will coupons be available by Jan 1, 2010?" Since our businesses have time schedules upon which we make decisions, an answer like this can help someone with their individual decision on a feature.
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No, Samir, we're not saying a date. I'm sorry. As you can see, based on how pros will use coupons, there are always things that can cause additional work. But we're dedicated, committed and focused on getting coupons finished.
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Hi Samir - unfortunately not. Like Apple, SM makes no predictive statements, and I can see why. If they were to miss a deadline, they would have more negative feedback to deal with.
I think we have to accept that coupons were delayed by the infrastructure issues that arose over the last few months. I think most would agree that number one is always a well functioning site, which shows and sells photos smoothly.
I am just building my photo biz, and coupons would be great to have. I check this thread regularly, and am excited by what is coming. I think that we'll see them before the end of the year. But that is just a hunch.
I must respectfully disagree as people will get more than frustrated when kept completely in the dark.
I understand in the beginning why a date is not given as a project my have unexpected issues creating delays.
Also, I am sure they do not want to tip off a competitor.
But as a project is coming near completion, a soft date is typically given. For example, Spring 2010. If they were even close to the testing phase, I think it is reasonable to provide that.
Some people think it must be close to release because of screen shots. Well, screen shots are some of the first things designed. So this is no indication.
I work closely with some software developers. When a feature is being developed, they have already mapped out a tentative release date internally. As the project is well underway, they only provide a general release date (i.e. Spring 2010) until they have some time with users working in it in beta. Once they have done some beta testing, a release date is set and announced.
Look, even Microsoft provides release dates. And yes, they have revised release dates if there is a problem. People may get irritated but they deal with it and adjust their own decisions as needed.
Personally, I think keeping us in the dark with no general release date is going to leave a long lasting bitter taste is so many mouths.
I just posted today about Zenfolio vs Smugmug about someone asking which to use. I provided a link to this discussion so the person can make an informed decision. I did point out the features strength of both the best I could. But I for one have developed a bitter taste for how things are progressing.
Yes, I feel like a child and Papa Smugmug is saying we will be there soon when the long drive is just half way over.
DM
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I'm generally happy, tall, and fuzzy on the inside.www.NickensPhotography.com
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Does that mean it'll be done in the next month or so? Or if you don't want to commit to a "done" date when it's done, how about a minimum "it definitely won't be done before..." date?
When one adds new functionality to an existing software base, there's a need to design and create the code to implement the new functionality, and then there's all the changes to the existing code that's required in order to hook the new code in. Then the combined package needs to be tested to (a) make sure the new functionality works right, and (b) existing functionality hasn't been broken or "fixed" in error.
Writing the code for the new functionality can be pretty straight forward, depending on the spec, how good the developer is, and other supporting resources. However, tying the new code in with the existing code base requires knowledge of the existing system that can't be outsourced to a 3rd party on short notice. And if the pre-existing code base wasn't written with extensibility in mind and needs a large amount of re-working and testing, out-sourcing becomes a complete non-starter in all cases except for massive overhauls of the code base.
Now, while outsourcing is out of the question, one could reasonably ask why SM didn't put another developer on this when it was clear things were slipping instead of having BWG run himself into the ground working 16 hr days (and the diminishing returns that comes from such efforts) - but that's another discussion for another time.
I honestly don't see how they can get any more negative feedback than they are already getting. Similar thing has happened with the new Pocket Wizards for Nikon. They gave a release date, but then couldn't meet that deadline due to working on the Canon problems. They then gave a new release date. I would much rather have that then "it's coming soon." It has been over a year already and we've seen screen shots. I think a simple "by end of November", "before Christmas", "first quarter of 2010" isn't going to kill the company. You've already lost customers due to this specific upgrade, so why not through the rest of us that are hanging on a bone and at least give us an idea of when this upgrade will go live.
I know, I know...sorry we don't give out dates, but it's close.....
Sportshooter Member
***********************
D3, D700, 24-70 f/2.8, 70-200 VR, 50 f1/8, 200-400 VR f/4, 300/2.8 VR, 400 f/2.8 VR, 85 f/1.8, TC-14E II, TC-17E II, Sigma 15/2.8 Fisheye, SB-900 (2), SD-9, SB-600, AB800 (2), misc. other stuff
From the day you are born, you are one day closer to death. It could be the next day or 100 years away.
If you think you are less than 3 to 6 months out, I think it would be reasonable to say so.
At this point, it is not so easy for me to switch. But I do not think I will recommend Smugmug to anyone . . . not with keep them in the dark, stall them philosophy. And when my account expires, I will do my best to switch.
DM
I guess if SM said it'll be done by a specific date, and then some of the folks on this forum decide to hang on and not switch as some have repeatedly indicated they would if coupons aren't out by then-and-then, and then SM postpones, you'd hear from these people. They might accuse SM of giving a false date to discourage people from switching. Considering someone here has already suggested SM of something called lulling (if memory serves), this is not that far fetched.
If a date was given, then people would start planning accordingly - perhaps prepare marketing campaigns that use coupons (I know I have a couple ready) and plan on deploying them. A delay would then lead to acute frustration. As it is now, there is a general frustration, but no one can say "SM promised me this by this day, and have not come through".
Don't get me wrong - part of me wants a date too
But part of me accepts that if I was working for SM, I'd do it this way too.
Still - after the coupons come out, I am sure going to miss reading this thread!
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
:uhoh
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Are you saying the project should be out in 3 to 6 months?
Or are you saying it is NOT 3 to 6 months out but Smugmug will let us know when it is 3 to 6 months of being released?
DM
??? You asked if it was "less than 3 to 6 months out" and he replied with "oh yes" - how is that not clear?
sigh... this thread is depressing - not because of the features we don't have, but because of the endless whining.
+1,000,000
Troy, MI
D700/200, SB800(4), 70-200, 300 2.8 and a few more
www.sportsshooter.com/tjk60
It is kind of like "whining" about your favorite sports team and how bad they are or how they keep doing stupid things...it gives us something to be passionate about:lol. I mostly come to dgrin just to read this thread!
Sportshooter Member
***********************
D3, D700, 24-70 f/2.8, 70-200 VR, 50 f1/8, 200-400 VR f/4, 300/2.8 VR, 400 f/2.8 VR, 85 f/1.8, TC-14E II, TC-17E II, Sigma 15/2.8 Fisheye, SB-900 (2), SD-9, SB-600, AB800 (2), misc. other stuff
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Threatening is no better,
You interpret his post as a lack of respect then close up your post with a threat?
Keith Tharp.com - Champion Photo
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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I have to give kudos to the forum management staff on dgrin. It's not an easy task to maintain an environment like this one, especially on such a busy site like dgrin.
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SamirD - Did I miss something??
My point was simply to express that the comments recently have become less constructive (the point of the thread was to solicit *feedback*). It has been clear for some time that Andy is not going give release dates and no amount of prodding from us on dgrin will make this get done any faster.
I'll go back to lurking in this thread now as I'd hate to lose any teeth.
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They can close this one right after they close the "get ready to sell stock" thread, that one had over 2 years of uselessness, SmugStock never materialized.
Lets hope coupons have a brighter future.
Keith Tharp.com - Champion Photo
There's several different posts by different users in all sorts of threads across the support section where some people call others "whiners" for their opinion. I was just trying to point out that by doing that, they are effectively namecalling and belittling the other users' opinions. I don't think this is what was conveyed in my previous posts. Sorry!
Said teeth knocking was just meant to be a comparison between online and real life etiquette, and how this belittling behavior in real life might have different reactions from different people. I didn't mean it to sound like an attack of any sort. I guess I needed to word it even more delicately than I did.
I'm just going sit like this
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I was thinking of a special "Holiday sale" like 10% off $50, and 15% off $100, etc. Or maybe purchase $50, and get a credit for $5, purchase $100, get a credit for $15. What are some other creative ways to use the coupons/credits during the holidays?
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