I agree with Davidto on that re anonymous, for the reason he gave.
I do think there is favoritism, sometimes in the voting. I have been a co judge, and I have never seen favoritism there.
I will somewhat vote for ..................well, I think, and it is only my opinion, but you know the academy awards where an actor didn't win for a great job in a great role and a year or so later wins for a lesser job, or so it appears.
I think that kind of thing is less common here, in fact I cannot come up with an example, but that is not saying that couldn't happen. But it takes more than one vote to win. It takes more than one judge to choose the finalists.
It is very hard to choose. One time when I was involved, someone posted their shot on the "whip me" thing to find out what was wrong with his/hers and why it didn't get chosen. That was kind of inventive, but it couldn't tell him/her why
it didn't get chosen. It just didn't, and it was a very good shot.
I don't see a better way, and I think the challenges are becoming more difficult as we have so many really good photographers here now. I will probably enter another one sometime, but I think my days are really over and I am better off staying away from it. I am very sensitive, if I work hard, and if I don't work hard...........well, that is not the point either.
But I can't say what I will do in the future.
But I can say that probably all that was said here today has a grain of truth. Nothing, no one, is perfect. I don't know of a perfect system for most things.
The one thing that I can say is that I don't want to run the challenge, and until the day comes when I would run it, well, I don't even begin to want to tell other people how to run it.
Oh, as far as crtiques go, I have seen glowing critiques for shots that I did not think would be picked, and they weren't. When I was co judge, I stayed away from that stuff, I did not want to be swayed by that. They all stay away, as far as I know. I put my stuff up for critique often. If I am going to enter. Partly I enjoy the camaraderie, and partly, well, I have another reason.............but it doesn't have anything to do with the judges.
And the suggestions may help me then and in the future.
ginger
Haven't posted in awhile....just been too busy....
I would love to see someone try to tell Fred his choices were flawed!
But the reason I post this, (not trying to attack anyone) is that there will always be bias in either choosing finalists or voting. In this thread
I never knew that you could log out and see the results.
Cool!
ginger (thanks)
I vote for the subject "change" for the next challenge: Pennies From Heaven for me.
(I just vote for my best friend)
I am always hoping they don't "all" get into the finals at once. Could make things interesting.
Ginger says that she does vote for "her best friend." I think at some time all of us have done that in one way or another and not necessarily here either. Sorry Ginger to pick on you, but.........
Ginger says that she does vote for "her best friend." I think at some time all of us have done that in one way or another and not necessarily here either. Sorry Ginger to pick on you, but.........
Guess that means if you lose not only are you a bad photographer you're also an A$$ (no friends).
Greg "Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
I *am* happy with the challenge finalists
I'm a newbie. I am only a vacation photographer. I do not participate in the challenges.
Now, in spite of all that, I'm a non-participating newbie vacation photographer who would be extremely disheartened if the challenges would be eliminated. The photos that appear (even the non-finalists) serve as an inspiration as to what can be accomplished with some creativity and effort. Speaking for the silent masses (or not), please do not consider halting the challenges.
No system is perfect, and I think the powers-that-be have done as good a job as humanly possible defining the process.
That's all.
SmugMug site => The Bakker Chautauqua
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." (Einstein)
I'm a newbie. I am only a vacation photographer. I do not participate in the challenges.
Now, in spite of all that, I'm a non-participating newbie vacation photographer who would be extremely disheartened if the challenges would be eliminated. The photos that appear (even the non-finalists) serve as an inspiration as to what can be accomplished with some creativity and effort. Speaking for the silent masses (or not), please do not consider halting the challenges.
No system is perfect, and I think the powers-that-be have done as good a job as humanly possible defining the process.
That's all.
I don't think I ever suggested that (nor would I now) and this thread is my sandbox.
But why not remove the names from the entries? Yeah, I can still figure out which images belong to which poster in about ten seconds. But make me have to work at it a little bit!
I don't think I ever suggested that (nor would I now) and this thread is my sandbox.
I didn't mean to imply that you did. But somewhere in the middle of this thread the suggestion arose that perhaps the whole notion of a contest should be discarded. I was simply voicing my opinion that I disagreed with that suggestion.
I'll try to stay out of your sandbox in the future.
SmugMug site => The Bakker Chautauqua
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." (Einstein)
at least we're on par with all other posts, even if this one was volatile.
It appears that the "chosen one" is not doing so well in the voting, so if truths picture were there instead, and losing also, would that mean that we would have or could have waited a few more days for the beyatching to begin?
110!!
PS...I did vote, but for a totally different shot.
It appears that the "chosen one" is not doing so well in the voting, so if truths picture were there instead, and losing also, would that mean that we would have or could have waited a few more days for the beyatching to begin?
Feedback for Challenges - Please read
I'm only posting with the sincere hope that my feedback doesn't get tied up with the flaming. I like the challenges and they are OK as they are...but there is room for improvement.
I think Ginger was referring to me when she was talking about someone posting on the Whipping Post. I didn't get picked as a finalist and I thought I had a strong entry. I wasn't sour that I didn't make it. I actually was craving for some real feedback and criticism so I could really learn from the experience.
A lot of people say the challenges should be about having fun and learning. We would learn a lot more if the judges would comment on their assessment of each of the photographs that didn't make the cut. I know that's *a lot* of work and may be impractical but it doesn't have to be a thesis. Just a few comments: "Not a close match to theme, soft focus on apparent subject, framing doesn't enhance composition, lacks feeling".
An alternative is to post on the Whipping Post and let everyone know that you didn't get picked and you solicit honest feedback. This would cut down on the amount of work the judges would have to do to give feedback.
I think another improvement that will make the selection more objective is to establish some guidelines for weighting of selection factors. For example, 20% adherence to theme, 40% composition, 40% originality or something like that.
I disagree with making the selections purely on voting. I think the challenges need to be judged and I frankly prefer it when the judges have sufficient experience to develop a critical eye. Leaving it to the voting would make this purely a popularity contest. Let's not make art a democratic process!
Erich
P.S. As I look back at the image that I wanted feedback for not making the finalists a while back I can now see the weak elements that I couldn't see then. There's definitely something to be said for experience! (It also helps to not be so close to it).
Well I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to get my two cents in too.
I love the challeges. I have never felt like I wasn't picked because of who I am and think the judges make excellent choices.
I thank the judges and Andy for doing a great job. Personally I don't want it to be anonymous. It is cool to see who sends in a picture. Anonymous takes
a lot of the fun out it.
A lot of people say the challenges should be about having fun and learning. We would learn a lot more if the judges would comment on their assessment of each of the photographs that didn't make the cut. I know that's *a lot* of work and may be impractical but it doesn't have to be a thesis. Just a few comments: "Not a close match to theme, soft focus on apparent subject, framing doesn't enhance composition, lacks feeling".
I thought the same thing, and posted such earlier, but some here thought that idea was "terrible." Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought of this.
I thought the same thing, and posted such earlier, but some here thought that idea was "terrible." Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought of this.
yeah the mini-challenges on dpreview you get much more feedback. and its not that much to do for 10 photos after you pick them, you already know in your head why they won since you just selected them. at taht point, unless you cant type, should take 15 minutes to do a critique.
i won a mini-challenge, which is a lot more casual than their regular challenges which involve a very nice presentation in a pbase gallery. they haev several reserved by users just for challenges. it is great. on the regular challenges, the voters can leave critique. its very good.
but even in the mini-challenge i won, which only involves posting pics in the thread, as a judge in the next contest, i followed in the footsteps of the other judges and gave explanations for each honorable mention as well as the top 3. it took a little time, but i didnt mind.
Looks like you have not been around here very long. From what I have read here, the reason your shot didn't get chosen is because it was not taken during the challenge period. It had nothing to do with who's cigarette shot was better. Yours was very good, by the way.
I thought all of the entries were quite good. It must have been very hard to chose only 10.
Remember that the judges are just people like you and me. One is a moderator and the other is a plain old member, just like you and me. These two judges are rotated all the time.
I used to join in the challenge regularly, but I just have not had the time lately. I check out the the challenge theme most times and keep it in mind in case I have a shot that fits. The themes do give me ideas for what to shoot when I need some inspiration.
I hope you'll stick around for a while. Please reread the challenge rules and take part if you are inclined. It's all just for fun. The greatest benefit you can get is the input from fellow members in the critique forum before entering the challenge. That will help you become a better photographer. That's what it's all about. If you don't make the finals it's no big deal. It's all in the eye of the beholder etc. These folks are not professionals for the most part. (Actually, a few of them are) So, keep taking photos and keep getting that precious feedback.
Looks like you have not been around here very long. From what I have read here, the reason your shot didn't get chosen is because it was not taken during the challenge period. It had nothing to do with who's cigarette shot was better. Yours was very good, by the way.
I thought all of the entries were quite good. It must have been very hard to chose only 10.
Remember that the judges are just people like you and me. One is a moderator and the other is a plain old member, just like you and me. These two judges are rotated all the time.
I used to join in the challenge regularly, but I just have not had the time lately. I check out the the challenge theme most times and keep it in mind in case I have a shot that fits. The themes do give me ideas for what to shoot when I need some inspiration.
I hope you'll stick around for a while. Please reread the challenge rules and take part if you are inclined. It's all just for fun. The greatest benefit you can get is the input from fellow members in the critique forum before entering the challenge. That will help you become a better photographer. That's what it's all about. If you don't make the finals it's no big deal. It's all in the eye of the beholder etc. These folks are not professionals for the most part. (Actually, a few of them are) So, keep taking photos and keep getting that precious feedback.
Hope you enjoy our company.
Snappy
You read wrong, but thanks for the advice and the compliment.
Looks like you have not been around here very long. From what I have read here, the reason your shot didn't get chosen is because it was not taken during the challenge period. It had nothing to do with who's cigarette shot was better. Yours was very good, by the way.
From the exif data included with the shot, he was well within the challenge period.
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Wow this is one long thread!
As my children were growing up many a time I heard "That's not FAIR"
All I would reply is "life is not fair".
Fair is your idea of getting what you want.
This was a difficult challenge with some wonderful entries -- some interesting concepts to the word. That is what makes these challenges so interesting - each artists concept.
You read wrong, but thanks for the advice and the compliment.
Hmmm, Andy's comment about the challenge starting on the 10th led me to believe the date was the problem. I can't explain it. I guess when there are two shots with the same concept they have to pick their favorite of the two. And that's so totally subjective. Personally, I like Truth's shot. But, the other shot shows more of the smoke and less of the cigarette. Maybe that puts the focus more on the "air". I don't know the reason. It's just speculation.
I have been left out of the finals many times myself. It no longer bothers me. I just keep on truckin'. I had a shot passed over once that I later submitted to Kodak for the "picture of the day". It was chosen by Kodak. I've seen others do the same. I think perhaps they did not fit the theme of the dgrin challenge as well as the shot that ended up winning. Sometimes some really good shots are just not so "spot on" the theme, but they are outstanding photos. Hey, why don't you send your shot in to Kodak? It might fit their "artistic/creative" category. Just an idea. Remember, there is just no accounting for taste. It's all so subjective.
Comments
What the
Hey who let you in on that? Andy I think we have a whistleblower!!!! We all know what whistleblowers get.
:hang
Crap! I'll bet the New York Times is all over this. Quick start shredding the documents!
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
SmugMug API Developer
My Photos
:lol
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Man! I was forming a visual based on these comments. Yikes!!!:D
If that doesn't scare the newcomers away ...?
ziggy53
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Yes but only on the rodeo clowns...
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
Sort of like an incantation?
In that case, shouldn't you standardize all the words, make them a common prayer?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Our cups, I mean. Not yours.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Now where did I leave those tassles...
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Haven't posted in awhile....just been too busy....
I would love to see someone try to tell Fred his choices were flawed!
But the reason I post this, (not trying to attack anyone) is that there will always be bias in either choosing finalists or voting. In this thread
Ginger says that she does vote for "her best friend." I think at some time all of us have done that in one way or another and not necessarily here either. Sorry Ginger to pick on you, but.........
http://lonepine.shutterbugstorefront.com
Guess that means if you lose not only are you a bad photographer you're also an A$$ (no friends).
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Nice comeback! Doink!
http://lonepine.shutterbugstorefront.com
I'm a newbie. I am only a vacation photographer. I do not participate in the challenges.
Now, in spite of all that, I'm a non-participating newbie vacation photographer who would be extremely disheartened if the challenges would be eliminated. The photos that appear (even the non-finalists) serve as an inspiration as to what can be accomplished with some creativity and effort. Speaking for the silent masses (or not), please do not consider halting the challenges.
No system is perfect, and I think the powers-that-be have done as good a job as humanly possible defining the process.
That's all.
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." (Einstein)
I don't think I ever suggested that (nor would I now) and this thread is my sandbox.
But why not remove the names from the entries? Yeah, I can still figure out which images belong to which poster in about ten seconds. But make me have to work at it a little bit!
I'll try to stay out of your sandbox in the future.
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." (Einstein)
Oh shoot! My cat just pooped in your sandbox. Dude, sorry about that.
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
at least we're on par with all other posts, even if this one was volatile.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
It appears that the "chosen one" is not doing so well in the voting, so if truths picture were there instead, and losing also, would that mean that we would have or could have waited a few more days for the beyatching to begin?
110!!
PS...I did vote, but for a totally different shot.
Only if the lightining shot was still omitted.
I'm only posting with the sincere hope that my feedback doesn't get tied up with the flaming. I like the challenges and they are OK as they are...but there is room for improvement.
I think Ginger was referring to me when she was talking about someone posting on the Whipping Post. I didn't get picked as a finalist and I thought I had a strong entry. I wasn't sour that I didn't make it. I actually was craving for some real feedback and criticism so I could really learn from the experience.
A lot of people say the challenges should be about having fun and learning. We would learn a lot more if the judges would comment on their assessment of each of the photographs that didn't make the cut. I know that's *a lot* of work and may be impractical but it doesn't have to be a thesis. Just a few comments: "Not a close match to theme, soft focus on apparent subject, framing doesn't enhance composition, lacks feeling".
An alternative is to post on the Whipping Post and let everyone know that you didn't get picked and you solicit honest feedback. This would cut down on the amount of work the judges would have to do to give feedback.
I think another improvement that will make the selection more objective is to establish some guidelines for weighting of selection factors. For example, 20% adherence to theme, 40% composition, 40% originality or something like that.
I disagree with making the selections purely on voting. I think the challenges need to be judged and I frankly prefer it when the judges have sufficient experience to develop a critical eye. Leaving it to the voting would make this purely a popularity contest. Let's not make art a democratic process!
Erich
P.S. As I look back at the image that I wanted feedback for not making the finalists a while back I can now see the weak elements that I couldn't see then. There's definitely something to be said for experience! (It also helps to not be so close to it).
I love the challeges. I have never felt like I wasn't picked because of who I am and think the judges make excellent choices.
I thank the judges and Andy for doing a great job. Personally I don't want it to be anonymous. It is cool to see who sends in a picture. Anonymous takes
a lot of the fun out it.
Oh well great job everyone!
I Live at http://www.alaskamountainforum.com
I thought the same thing, and posted such earlier, but some here thought that idea was "terrible." Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought of this.
yeah the mini-challenges on dpreview you get much more feedback. and its not that much to do for 10 photos after you pick them, you already know in your head why they won since you just selected them. at taht point, unless you cant type, should take 15 minutes to do a critique.
i won a mini-challenge, which is a lot more casual than their regular challenges which involve a very nice presentation in a pbase gallery. they haev several reserved by users just for challenges. it is great. on the regular challenges, the voters can leave critique. its very good.
but even in the mini-challenge i won, which only involves posting pics in the thread, as a judge in the next contest, i followed in the footsteps of the other judges and gave explanations for each honorable mention as well as the top 3. it took a little time, but i didnt mind.
Gear
*Canon 40D: 17-55IS - 70-300IS - 100mm Macro - Sigma 10-20EX
*Imagination
Looks like you have not been around here very long. From what I have read here, the reason your shot didn't get chosen is because it was not taken during the challenge period. It had nothing to do with who's cigarette shot was better. Yours was very good, by the way.
I thought all of the entries were quite good. It must have been very hard to chose only 10.
Remember that the judges are just people like you and me. One is a moderator and the other is a plain old member, just like you and me. These two judges are rotated all the time.
I used to join in the challenge regularly, but I just have not had the time lately. I check out the the challenge theme most times and keep it in mind in case I have a shot that fits. The themes do give me ideas for what to shoot when I need some inspiration.
I hope you'll stick around for a while. Please reread the challenge rules and take part if you are inclined. It's all just for fun. The greatest benefit you can get is the input from fellow members in the critique forum before entering the challenge. That will help you become a better photographer. That's what it's all about. If you don't make the finals it's no big deal. It's all in the eye of the beholder etc. These folks are not professionals for the most part. (Actually, a few of them are) So, keep taking photos and keep getting that precious feedback.
Hope you enjoy our company.
Snappy
Susan Appel Photography My Blog
You read wrong, but thanks for the advice and the compliment.
From the exif data included with the shot, he was well within the challenge period.
As my children were growing up many a time I heard "That's not FAIR"
All I would reply is "life is not fair".
Fair is your idea of getting what you want.
This was a difficult challenge with some wonderful entries -- some interesting concepts to the word. That is what makes these challenges so interesting - each artists concept.
Hmmm, Andy's comment about the challenge starting on the 10th led me to believe the date was the problem. I can't explain it. I guess when there are two shots with the same concept they have to pick their favorite of the two. And that's so totally subjective. Personally, I like Truth's shot. But, the other shot shows more of the smoke and less of the cigarette. Maybe that puts the focus more on the "air". I don't know the reason. It's just speculation.
I have been left out of the finals many times myself. It no longer bothers me. I just keep on truckin'. I had a shot passed over once that I later submitted to Kodak for the "picture of the day". It was chosen by Kodak. I've seen others do the same. I think perhaps they did not fit the theme of the dgrin challenge as well as the shot that ended up winning. Sometimes some really good shots are just not so "spot on" the theme, but they are outstanding photos. Hey, why don't you send your shot in to Kodak? It might fit their "artistic/creative" category. Just an idea. Remember, there is just no accounting for taste. It's all so subjective.
Susan Appel Photography My Blog