im just trying to find a camera with a "easy" button...
the 5D2 has this feature....right?
Haha I like your logic.
My grip and extra battery arrived from Tallyn's yesterday... which was crazy fast! I cancelled my body order on Monday and said to please keep the battery order and add a grip to that order... they shipped it out same day with my still free shipping (since grip + battery was > 300) and since I am only a few hours drive away from Tallyn's... UPS had it to my door the very next day!
Plus Tallyn's sent me some free promo goodies that further made my day.
I hope to have more photos to post late tonight or sometime tomorrow. VU has men's and women's basketball games tonight and I'll be taking photos w/ the 5D2 to test out some of those higher ISO's in action Looking forward to using the grip at basketball! (This is the first grip for any of my DSLR's I've ever owned)
50D vs 5D Mark II?
I am currently shooting with a 40D, Canon 70-200, f/2.8 IS. I shoot mostly highschool football games of all my nephews and cheerleading competitions. I am very intrigued with the ISO capabilities of the 5D Mark II but concerned with possibly giving up the fps in going from the 40D to the 5D Mark II. I am also looking at the 50D. Any recommendation or advice? Thanks Patrick
If you are shooting mainly sports and action, stick with the 40D instead of going for the 5D MK II. The 5D mk II, may be acceptable for sports, but the 40D/50D/1D series are more geared for that kind of shooting.
By Private Message
No PMs please, ask questions in the open forum. Why?
1) others can answer, and weigh in
2) it's searchable and others will benefit
3) if everyone PM'd me and other experts/frequent posters, we'd do nothing but answer PMs
Andy, your pictures using the 5D were amazing. I am wondering how this camera ISO noise compares with the 50D. I have a 40D and am considering upgrading. Thanks.
Thanks for the props! I find the noise to be really good on both, I'm gonna give the edge to the 5D Mark II though!
If you are shooting mainly sports and action, stick with the 40D instead of going for the 5D MK II. The 5D mk II, may be acceptable for sports, but the 40D/50D/1D series are more geared for that kind of shooting.
Huh? I beg to differ but the 5DMkII would be fine for most sports. In fact, I've seen results from soccer and surf. Both were very acceptable. If you want to spray and pray, then sure; get a 1D otherwise, learn your sport--I mean what did they do before fast motor drives/winders?
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
I find the noise to be really good on both, I'm gonna give the edge to the 5D Mark II though!
I have a 40D & 5D MKII now, and had but sold a 50D. I don't think there was much of a noise difference between the 40D & 50D, I would say upgrade to the 50D if you need the extra pixels or want the new features, but not for a noise improvement.
That said, I definitely think there is a noise advantage in the 5D MKII over both the 40D & 50D, and the previous version 5D.
No PMs please, ask questions in the open forum. Why?
1) others can answer, and weigh in
2) it's searchable and others will benefit
3) if everyone PM'd me and other experts/frequent posters, we'd do nothing but answer PMs
Thanks for the props! I find the noise to be really good on both, I'm gonna give the edge to the 5D Mark II though!
Huh? I beg to differ but the 5DMkII would be fine for most sports. In fact, I've seen results from soccer and surf. Both were very acceptable. If you want to spray and pray, then sure; get a 1D otherwise, learn your sport--I mean what did they do before fast motor drives/winders?
I want a higher ISO so I can catch the high speed action without the blur in poor lighting. I had good success with the 40D on its high setting but had a lot of work to do in PS and Noiseware Professional. That said, will I miss the fps over the higher ISO? Also having only the 200mm some shots from across the field I have to crop and this is another reason to look at a camera that has less noise.
I'm already shooting with two systems Nikon/Fuji and Olympus and basically got the 5D mkII out of my system then I look back here and see these videos, high ISO, and the resolution. I'm buying another body in the next month and this is pure temptation
That said, will I miss the fps over the higher ISO? Also having only the 200mm some shots from across the field I have to crop and this is another reason to look at a camera that has less noise.
These are really only questions you can answer. For me, I don't think I've ever had my 40D set to shoot 6.4 fps, it's always on 3 fps, so I don't miss it when I don't have it. For some, it's crucial.
Same with the extra "reach" of the 40D. I care about my wide angle shots much more than I look for extra "reach", but that's just me. However, when I go to the zoo or something like that, I bring the 40D, because I do prefer to have a little extra "reach" there.
These are really only questions you can answer. For me, I don't think I've ever had my 40D set to shoot 6.4 fps, it's always on 3 fps, so I don't miss it when I don't have it. For some, it's crucial.
Same with the extra "reach" of the 40D. I care about my wide angle shots much more than I look for extra "reach", but that's just me. However, when I go to the zoo or something like that, I bring the 40D, because I do prefer to have a little extra "reach" there.
Now I am going to show how much a novice I really am. When I think of "reach" I think the 5D with 21 megapixels would be better than the 40D at 10 MP? What am I missing? When I am fully zoomed at 200mm there still are times when I need to crop to pull the action closer and I was interpreting that the 5D would be better for this?
Now I am going to show how much a novice I really am. When I think of "reach" I think the 5D with 21 megapixels would be better than the 40D at 10 MP? What am I missing? When I am fully zoomed at 200mm there still are times when I need to crop to pull the action closer and I was interpreting that the 5D would be better for this?
When you crop a 21MP image from a 5D II to the sensor size of a 40D (crop factor = 1.6) you get an image of 8MP.
“To consult the rules of composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of gravitation before going for a walk.”
― Edward Weston
Got the call and my mark II arrives tomorrow, baby! If you're with Tallyn's, they will be processing #12 next. They said 3 bodies were delivered to them today and 3 before me cancelled, so I got lucky and got one. I bought myself the overnight shipping as a special present for being good.
When you crop a 21MP image from a 5D II to the sensor size of a 40D (crop factor = 1.6) you get an image of 8MP.
That's a good point. I had to work through the math, and that's correct. So basically, the 5DII has the reach of the 20D. So one is far better off with the 50D for something like birds, where reach is king.
I would once again remind everyone that it is "responsiveness" that is important for sports, not just frames-per-second (FPS).
Responsiveness is related to a good number of factors, and this is the order I suggest is important:
AF speed and accuracy
AE speed and accuracy
Shutter lag
FPS
Shot buffer depth
Viewfinder blackout and shutter recycle
Flash sync speed
Shot buffer clear and flush
The Canon 1D/1Ds series cameras and the Nikon D3, D700 and D300 all have pretty phenomenal AF sections. I believe they all have something the industry calls "Area SIR TTL" autofocus which, compared with the simpler "CT (Cross Type) SIR TTL" autofocus, provides the ability to find focus on edges at "any" angle and under lower light conditions. This more advanced AF section will provide a higher keeper ratio of shots than the AF systems used in the lesser camera bodies.
Any camera "may" be used for sports photography, but there is a real reason why the highest paid professionals use the best AF available; a more responsive AF section allows a larger "crop" of images from which to choose and a shot is worthless if it is out of focus.
The best cameras also have more processor speed dedicated towards exposure processing, which can also impact the responsiveness of the camera and the accuracy of which directly impacts the image quality.
Shutter lag is the measure between when you press the shutter and the image is actually formed on the imaging chip. The AF and AE sections will factor in as well as the mirror mechanism (how quickly the mirror swings out of the way) and the shutter mechanism (how quickly the shutter starts to traverse the image plane), The highest tier cameras have typically reduced shutter lag over the lesser cameras due to a more robust mirror assembly and faster shutter transport mechanism. The best Canon cameras include a "latch" to hold the mirror from rebounding because it moves so fast.
FPS is the shooting rate and is somewhat dependant upon all of the other factors, above and below this point.
Shot buffer depth is that memory component of the camera which temporarily holds the image captures, prior to processing. The deeper the buffer, the more you can shoot until the buffer is finally full. In sports photography it is not unusual for the action to continue through a considerable span of time, hence the need for a deeper shot buffer.
Viewfinder blackout and shutter recycle are usually related. The shorter the blackout and recycle time, the faster you can shoot. Shorter blackout also relates to better composition and faster tracking. Remember that the AF section is also defeated during blackout so the shorter blackout times can also impact AF tracking speed.
Flash sync can be important for those sports that allow flash photography.
Shot buffer clear and flush. If the shot buffer is not processed quickly, it cannot clear and be ready for the next round of images. Likewise, if the buffer writes slowly to the memory card, the camera will feel sluggish.
All of the above are components which can relate to the responsiveness of the camera and each can be measured and the impact weighed against your use and needs.
Unfortunately, the Canon 5D and 5D MKII are not very good sports cameras and would feel pretty slow compared to even a 1D MKII, soon to be a 5 year old camera. I still consider the Canon 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII to be the premier Canon sports cameras and they excell in many, if not most, of the above responsiveness measures.
I would agree with Andy that the Canon 50D is probably more suited for sports than the 5D or 5D MKII.
Do spend a considerable amount of time and money on lenses as they can also impact on the responsiveness and ultimate success rate of sports photography.
I would once again remind everyone that it is "responsiveness" that is important for sports, not just frames-per-second (FPS).
I generally agree with what you've said.
However, given the context of the forum's membership, the 5D is as good camera for shooting sports and almost anything else. If you make your living shooting D1 or professional sports, then yes. By all means, choose the 1D/D3 series but for the average shooter, pick a 5D/40D/50D and go shoot--and as you suggest, get the best glass as that will have an impact on AF performance. I'd add that you should also find the fastest memory card your camera will work with.
I have said before that it is far more important to know your sport than to do the spray and pray. Knowing your sport will have more impact on keeper rate than FPS.
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Ziggy, and would you agree that we could substitute the word "wildlife" for "sports" in your above explanation (which was very helpful and clear)
In a very general and broad sense, many of the same reasons that make a good sports camera also make a good wildlife camera. For larger and slower moving wildlife a Canon 5D or 5D MKII might make sense.
However, given the context of the forum's membership, the 5D is as good camera for shooting sports and almost anything else. If you make your living shooting D1 or professional sports, then yes. By all means, choose the 1D/D3 series but for the average shooter, pick a 5D/40D/50D and go shoot--and as you suggest, get the best glass as that will have an impact on AF performance. I'd add that you should also find the fastest memory card your camera will work with.
I have said before that it is far more important to know your sport than to do the spray and pray. Knowing your sport will have more impact on keeper rate than FPS.
Since it's pretty easy to find a good 1D MKII for under $2000, I suggest that people need to concentrate on the properties that are important for a consistantly better keeper rate for sports photography and the 5D MKII is lacking in too many areas to make it a first or even second choice for sports photography.
"Spray and pray" is a technique that is just as inappropriate for rapid rate photography as it is for lower frame rate photography. Knowing the game "is" important and will improve the keeper rate with any camera, but with a more responsive camera it will result in even greater success.
Most sports photographers use a knowlege of the game to anticipate the action and then shoot a short burst, timed to match the action. There were very few times when I ever had to fill the buffer of my camera in my son's football, for instance.
Trust me, I am excited about the Canon 5D MKII and I will add it to my own cameras for landscapes, formals and portraiture.
In a very general and broad sense, many of the same reasons that make a good sports camera also make a good wildlife camera. For larger and slower moving wildlife a Canon 5D or 5D MKII might make sense.
I submit that people photography, outside of the studio or portraiture, is just another form of "sports" or "wildlife" photography. All the same needs are there: AF, responsiveness, etc.
I submit that people photography, outside of the studio or portraiture, is just another form of "sports" or "wildlife" photography. All the same needs are there: AF, responsiveness, etc.
Yes, the Canon 1D series does a wonderful job in wedding and event venues. The redundant storage is also a major benefit for "once-in-a-lifetime" shoots. (The Nikon D3 also has redundant storage and, with it's superb low-light performance, makes a splendid choice as well. )
I submit that people photography, outside of the studio or portraiture, is just another form of "sports" or "wildlife" photography. All the same needs are there: AF, responsiveness, etc.
The 5D2 worked like a CHAMP last night at the basketball games I photographed. I shot with it on ISO 4,000 at 1/800 f2.8 w/ my 70-200 f2.8/L IS USM. I put it in center point AI servo for focus, and enabled the AF expansion in custom settings so that the 6 helper points will work during AI server center point focus. See below for examples. PS- since Lightroom won't open the RAW's, I shot RAW + JPG, and the files you see below are from the JPGs which were barely touched at all. For the most part the shots were great straight from the camera!
I have more where this came from if you want... going to make a post in the sports section now.
How was your in-focus to out-of-focus rate? If that's not too personal a question.
The 70-200 locked in focus CRAZY FAST on my 5D2 body, I was super impressed. And those 6 invisible points really helped when they were moving in and out and people were running past me, kept things focused where I wanted them. Generally last night I only missed focus if I was being silly and not noticing when they came running back to my side of the court for a good shot and I couldn't get the camera up fast enough (usually because I was too busy looking at the LCD screen at the previous photos, lol). Very impressive stuff, I'm in love, lol. And ISO 4,000 is just soooooooo clean compared to if I were shooting at ISO 1,600 or 3,200 on the 40D.
Oh and this was my first battery grip I've ever owned, I should have purchased one a long time ago for basketball. My hand and wrist was very grateful last night.
The 70-200 locked in focus CRAZY FAST on my 5D2 body, I was super impressed. And those 6 invisible points really helped when they were moving in and out and people were running past me, kept things focused where I wanted them.
Comments
im just trying to find a camera with a "easy" button...
the 5D2 has this feature....right?
Haha I like your logic.
My grip and extra battery arrived from Tallyn's yesterday... which was crazy fast! I cancelled my body order on Monday and said to please keep the battery order and add a grip to that order... they shipped it out same day with my still free shipping (since grip + battery was > 300) and since I am only a few hours drive away from Tallyn's... UPS had it to my door the very next day!
Plus Tallyn's sent me some free promo goodies that further made my day.
I hope to have more photos to post late tonight or sometime tomorrow. VU has men's and women's basketball games tonight and I'll be taking photos w/ the 5D2 to test out some of those higher ISO's in action
Facebook: Friend / Fan || Twitter: @shimamizu || Google Plus
I am currently shooting with a 40D, Canon 70-200, f/2.8 IS. I shoot mostly highschool football games of all my nephews and cheerleading competitions. I am very intrigued with the ISO capabilities of the 5D Mark II but concerned with possibly giving up the fps in going from the 40D to the 5D Mark II. I am also looking at the 50D. Any recommendation or advice? Thanks Patrick
Canon 1DM3, 20D & 40D, Canon f/2.8 70-200mm IS, Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8
www.tednghiem.com
No PMs please, ask questions in the open forum. Why?
1) others can answer, and weigh in
2) it's searchable and others will benefit
3) if everyone PM'd me and other experts/frequent posters, we'd do nothing but answer PMs
Thanks for the props!
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Huh? I beg to differ but the 5DMkII would be fine for most sports. In fact, I've seen results from soccer and surf. Both were very acceptable. If you want to spray and pray, then sure; get a 1D otherwise, learn your sport--I mean what did they do before fast motor drives/winders?
I have a 40D & 5D MKII now, and had but sold a 50D. I don't think there was much of a noise difference between the 40D & 50D, I would say upgrade to the 50D if you need the extra pixels or want the new features, but not for a noise improvement.
That said, I definitely think there is a noise advantage in the 5D MKII over both the 40D & 50D, and the previous version 5D.
Oops, Sorry Andy. Thanks
Canon 1DM3, 20D & 40D, Canon f/2.8 70-200mm IS, Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8
I want a higher ISO so I can catch the high speed action without the blur in poor lighting. I had good success with the 40D on its high setting but had a lot of work to do in PS and Noiseware Professional. That said, will I miss the fps over the higher ISO? Also having only the 200mm some shots from across the field I have to crop and this is another reason to look at a camera that has less noise.
Canon 1DM3, 20D & 40D, Canon f/2.8 70-200mm IS, Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8
I'm already shooting with two systems Nikon/Fuji and Olympus and basically got the 5D mkII out of my system then I look back here and see these videos, high ISO, and the resolution. I'm buying another body in the next month and this is pure temptation
These are really only questions you can answer. For me, I don't think I've ever had my 40D set to shoot 6.4 fps, it's always on 3 fps, so I don't miss it when I don't have it. For some, it's crucial.
Same with the extra "reach" of the 40D. I care about my wide angle shots much more than I look for extra "reach", but that's just me. However, when I go to the zoo or something like that, I bring the 40D, because I do prefer to have a little extra "reach" there.
Now I am going to show how much a novice I really am. When I think of "reach" I think the 5D with 21 megapixels would be better than the 40D at 10 MP? What am I missing? When I am fully zoomed at 200mm there still are times when I need to crop to pull the action closer and I was interpreting that the 5D would be better for this?
Canon 1DM3, 20D & 40D, Canon f/2.8 70-200mm IS, Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8
www.tednghiem.com
When you crop a 21MP image from a 5D II to the sensor size of a 40D (crop factor = 1.6) you get an image of 8MP.
― Edward Weston
That's a good point. I had to work through the math, and that's correct. So basically, the 5DII has the reach of the 20D. So one is far better off with the 50D for something like birds, where reach is king.
Link to my Smugmug site
Responsiveness is related to a good number of factors, and this is the order I suggest is important:
AF speed and accuracy
AE speed and accuracy
Shutter lag
FPS
Shot buffer depth
Viewfinder blackout and shutter recycle
Flash sync speed
Shot buffer clear and flush
The Canon 1D/1Ds series cameras and the Nikon D3, D700 and D300 all have pretty phenomenal AF sections. I believe they all have something the industry calls "Area SIR TTL" autofocus which, compared with the simpler "CT (Cross Type) SIR TTL" autofocus, provides the ability to find focus on edges at "any" angle and under lower light conditions. This more advanced AF section will provide a higher keeper ratio of shots than the AF systems used in the lesser camera bodies.
Any camera "may" be used for sports photography, but there is a real reason why the highest paid professionals use the best AF available; a more responsive AF section allows a larger "crop" of images from which to choose and a shot is worthless if it is out of focus.
The best cameras also have more processor speed dedicated towards exposure processing, which can also impact the responsiveness of the camera and the accuracy of which directly impacts the image quality.
Shutter lag is the measure between when you press the shutter and the image is actually formed on the imaging chip. The AF and AE sections will factor in as well as the mirror mechanism (how quickly the mirror swings out of the way) and the shutter mechanism (how quickly the shutter starts to traverse the image plane), The highest tier cameras have typically reduced shutter lag over the lesser cameras due to a more robust mirror assembly and faster shutter transport mechanism. The best Canon cameras include a "latch" to hold the mirror from rebounding because it moves so fast.
FPS is the shooting rate and is somewhat dependant upon all of the other factors, above and below this point.
Shot buffer depth is that memory component of the camera which temporarily holds the image captures, prior to processing. The deeper the buffer, the more you can shoot until the buffer is finally full. In sports photography it is not unusual for the action to continue through a considerable span of time, hence the need for a deeper shot buffer.
Viewfinder blackout and shutter recycle are usually related. The shorter the blackout and recycle time, the faster you can shoot. Shorter blackout also relates to better composition and faster tracking. Remember that the AF section is also defeated during blackout so the shorter blackout times can also impact AF tracking speed.
Flash sync can be important for those sports that allow flash photography.
Shot buffer clear and flush. If the shot buffer is not processed quickly, it cannot clear and be ready for the next round of images. Likewise, if the buffer writes slowly to the memory card, the camera will feel sluggish.
All of the above are components which can relate to the responsiveness of the camera and each can be measured and the impact weighed against your use and needs.
Unfortunately, the Canon 5D and 5D MKII are not very good sports cameras and would feel pretty slow compared to even a 1D MKII, soon to be a 5 year old camera. I still consider the Canon 1D MKII/MKIIN/MKIII to be the premier Canon sports cameras and they excell in many, if not most, of the above responsiveness measures.
I would agree with Andy that the Canon 50D is probably more suited for sports than the 5D or 5D MKII.
http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=942901&postcount=2
Do spend a considerable amount of time and money on lenses as they can also impact on the responsiveness and ultimate success rate of sports photography.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
http://danielplumer.com/
Facebook Fan Page
However, given the context of the forum's membership, the 5D is as good camera for shooting sports and almost anything else. If you make your living shooting D1 or professional sports, then yes. By all means, choose the 1D/D3 series but for the average shooter, pick a 5D/40D/50D and go shoot--and as you suggest, get the best glass as that will have an impact on AF performance. I'd add that you should also find the fastest memory card your camera will work with.
I have said before that it is far more important to know your sport than to do the spray and pray. Knowing your sport will have more impact on keeper rate than FPS.
In a very general and broad sense, many of the same reasons that make a good sports camera also make a good wildlife camera. For larger and slower moving wildlife a Canon 5D or 5D MKII might make sense.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Since it's pretty easy to find a good 1D MKII for under $2000, I suggest that people need to concentrate on the properties that are important for a consistantly better keeper rate for sports photography and the 5D MKII is lacking in too many areas to make it a first or even second choice for sports photography.
"Spray and pray" is a technique that is just as inappropriate for rapid rate photography as it is for lower frame rate photography. Knowing the game "is" important and will improve the keeper rate with any camera, but with a more responsive camera it will result in even greater success.
Most sports photographers use a knowlege of the game to anticipate the action and then shoot a short burst, timed to match the action. There were very few times when I ever had to fill the buffer of my camera in my son's football, for instance.
Trust me, I am excited about the Canon 5D MKII and I will add it to my own cameras for landscapes, formals and portraiture.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
I submit that people photography, outside of the studio or portraiture, is just another form of "sports" or "wildlife" photography. All the same needs are there: AF, responsiveness, etc.
Yes, the Canon 1D series does a wonderful job in wedding and event venues. The redundant storage is also a major benefit for "once-in-a-lifetime" shoots.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
The 5D2 worked like a CHAMP last night at the basketball games I photographed. I shot with it on ISO 4,000 at 1/800 f2.8 w/ my 70-200 f2.8/L IS USM. I put it in center point AI servo for focus, and enabled the AF expansion in custom settings so that the 6 helper points will work during AI server center point focus. See below for examples. PS- since Lightroom won't open the RAW's, I shot RAW + JPG, and the files you see below are from the JPGs which were barely touched at all. For the most part the shots were great straight from the camera!
I have more where this came from if you want... going to make a post in the sports section now.
Facebook: Friend / Fan || Twitter: @shimamizu || Google Plus
If you insist (not hard to pull my arm, lol)
Facebook: Friend / Fan || Twitter: @shimamizu || Google Plus
The 70-200 locked in focus CRAZY FAST on my 5D2 body, I was super impressed. And those 6 invisible points really helped when they were moving in and out and people were running past me, kept things focused where I wanted them. Generally last night I only missed focus if I was being silly and not noticing when they came running back to my side of the court for a good shot and I couldn't get the camera up fast enough (usually because I was too busy looking at the LCD screen at the previous photos, lol). Very impressive stuff, I'm in love, lol. And ISO 4,000 is just soooooooo clean compared to if I were shooting at ISO 1,600 or 3,200 on the 40D.
Oh and this was my first battery grip I've ever owned, I should have purchased one a long time ago for basketball. My hand and wrist was very grateful last night.
Facebook: Friend / Fan || Twitter: @shimamizu || Google Plus
Something about the positions of those two makes me laugh! It's like the guy near the ground was a spring board for the guy shooting!
www.tednghiem.com
I have high hopes!