b) nobody keeps cars for 10 years anymore, especially in the bmw bracket. those that do, have lots of money and do so because its a toy, not a daily driver. even honda and toyota know that its owners are replacing cars much quicker these days.
Car guys do. The cars in my family, all daily drivers.
1985 MB 380SE - bought new in Jan 86 so that's 20 years of ownership
1994 Olds Bravada - bought new in Jan 94 so that's 12 years of ownership
1998 BMW 540i - bought new in Mar 98, so thats 8 years of ownership
and then the newest edition but that's throws things off since it's a new addition. There is nothing wrong with keeping cars for a long time. Ok, so that Olds needed a new engine, but that was because the dealer serviced it wrong so that was comped. The BMW has needed a radiator of some coolant hoses of course, but nothing else. The MB has only needed a cam, a timing chain, and a fuel distributor. I should note that all other than the Olds are driven hard, and I mean shifting at the redline hard.
Those 5ers are notoriously aweful in terms of the cooling system.
Yeah, but the radiators are only $200 and easy to change out.
I forgot to add that Olds has also gone through a couple of heater cores, but I think the engineers knew it would because it's like 2 hours of labor even at the dealer.
True story but if I was to spend $50k+ on a car I would want it to last more than 10 years even if I wasn't going to keep it that whole time.
Why? What do you care?
Keep in mind kids, I'm not saying the cars won't last, but its just the trend, people don't keep cars outside of warranty - especially with the included service and long length of today's warranties.
Keep in mind kids, I'm not saying the cars won't last, but its just the trend, people don't keep cars outside of warranty - especially with the included service and long length of today's warranties.
Because when I'm old and grey I want my kids to have BMW's that will be inexpensive and reliable like what I have now. Fast forward 20-25 years from now and the oldest BMW that will still be around and plentiful would be the e36, which is a still a crappy car.
For one I preffer to buy older cars that way most major part failure trends have been exposed. I don't care if it's new car under warranty or not I need a car that run's not one that is going to end up in the shop every other week.
Second for those who do buy the new cars, it's a little thing called resale value. A car that's designed to last 5 years isn't going to have the reliability and resale value of a car designed to last 20 years.
When you consider a majority of the US population isn't going to get to drive new car's from the time they get their license most people will own at least one older car. If that car is a peice of crap do you think they are going to want to buy from that car company when they can afford a new car?
Me I'd buy from the company that had the longest lasting most reliable cars because if something happened and I had to keep the car longer than I planned I'd want it to last, plus if I was going to get a new car I'd like to have the car that is known to last longer because I could get more money back out of it.
The "what do you care" mentality that most american automakers have is one of their biggest problems. There cars don't last as long, aren't as reliable, aren't as cutting edge or stylish, and aren't holding peoples attention.
If you knew that canon camera's lasted 5 years longer than nikon camera's, had a stronger resale value, and where more reliable. Even if you planned on pulling an andy and selling them every three months, why would you buy nikon that you knew was going to have more problems.
But then again you did buy nikon so maybe this whole mentality is lost on you.
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
If you knew that canon camera's lasted 5 years longer than nikon camera's, had a stronger resale value, and where more reliable. Even if you planned on pulling an andy and selling them every three months, why would you buy nikon that you knew was going to have more problems.
But then again you did buy nikon so maybe this whole mentality is lost on you.
Your post was almost worth reading until you wrote that nonsense.
Sorry, but you are a small and decreasing minority. It's no secret, all the manufacturers know it.
Yes, car guys are a small and decreasing minority, but if someone is in this thread I would think they'd be a car guy. It's always cheaper to maintain an old car than to buy a new one if you do your own work, and if youre a car guy you do your own work.
Your post was almost worth reading until you wrote that nonsense.
Well it was an analogy after all. Everyone on here are least knows with canon and nikon they are both quality camera's that are reliable. Canon vs. a No-Name brand would be a better argument in this case. But it wouldn't ruffle the nikon guys feathers.
Yes, car guys are a small and decreasing minority, but if someone is in this thread I would think they'd be a car guy. It's always cheaper to maintain an old car than to buy a new one if you do your own work, and if youre a car guy you do your own work.
I thought we were talking about cars and trends, and not the tiny skewed population we have in this sick thread which is about to expire its usefulness?
You guys are so damn defensive! I'm not saying you're idiots and that old cars suck (and for one particularly defensive deity: Canon sucks), and that new cars are all designed to break in 5 years. I'm merely trying to point out the trends in the auto industry, not one of you have disputed that, you just keep going off on your tangents about how you love old cars and want your kids to drive old shitbox e30 BMW's.
edit: not all e30 bmw's are shitboxes, i know, I KNOW they are great cars with a superb track history, but we all know bmw parts aren't cheap, and any decades old car will need lots of parts. there's much better options for junior. Sheesh, you guys are like a bunch of girls, its like walking on glass all the time!
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
You guys are so damn defensive! I'm not saying you're idiots and that old cars suck (and for one particularly defensive deity: Canon sucks), and that
I'm not defensive, you &%^#@&!. (yes, that's a joke)
I think my point was misunderstood. I'm not saying that old cars are better necessarily, just that it's still possible to keep a car for a long time (i.e. just the face that a car is new and has electronics in it doesn't make it a ticking time bomb).
Because when I'm old and grey I want my kids to have BMW's that will be inexpensive and reliable like what I have now. Fast forward 20-25 years from now and the oldest BMW that will still be around and plentiful would be the e36, which is a still a crappy car.
Because an E36 isn't crappy. Even if you think it is, sure that's the BMW offering, but then look at the new camaro that's going to be coming out or the challenger, or the gto, or a vette. You may what about quality those cars won't last. As cars age people figure out cheap ways to keep them on the road. Any kid who cares about cars will get the one he wants and he'll figure some way to keep it going.
Because an E36 isn't crappy. Even if you think it is, sure that's the BMW offering, but then look at the new camaro that's going to be coming out or the challenger, or the gto, or a vette. You may what about quality those cars won't last. As cars age people figure out cheap ways to keep them on the road. Any kid who cares about cars will get the one he wants and he'll figure some way to keep it going.
the e36 are aweful. If you go to bimmerforums.com and look in the e30 section, you will see us discussing what wheels look good, or how to change brakes. In the e36 section you will see my car won't start, I smell gas, I smell antifreeze, my subframe busted, and my rear shocks blew through the shock towers.
That wasn't what that post was about anyway. It was about how there won't be any worthy affordable BMW's readilly available in 20-25 years.
the e36 are aweful. If you go to bimmerforums.com and look in the e30 section, you will see us discussing what wheels look good, or how to change brakes. In the e36 section you will see my car won't start, I smell gas, I smell antifreeze, my subframe busted, and my rear shocks blew through the shock towers.
That wasn't what that post was about anyway. It was about how there won't be any worthy affordable BMW's readilly available in 20-25 years.
In 20 years, you will be 39. That's not old. Will you see the plethora of
old cars on the road then as you do today? Not sure. But I'd be curious
to know if you dropped a load of today's American cars off in Cuba, would
they be able to keep them running the same way they've kept many of the
cars from the 50's going?
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
In 20 years, you will be 39. That's not old. Will you see the plethora of
old cars on the road then as you do today? Not sure. But I'd be curious
to know if you dropped a load of today's American cars off in Cuba, would
they be able to keep them running the same way they've kept many of the
cars from the 50's going?
Cars are different these days. All the complex electric motors will wear out and need to be replaced. Replacing over 100 motors in a car pretty much makes it worthless.
That doesn't make any sense. Sure we love BMW's but why would it be different accross models? I don't think you are even reading my posts.
Well, I still hold that those forums are basically dpreview, but ok my full thought process is this:
think about what types of people own e30's. Two types: people who want a BMW (but not because they are car people) but can't afford anything newer. This group typically rags the cars letting them get to a point where you say "How does a car even get like that" then they junkyard the car. This person never goes to an internet foum
The second type is the kind that buys an E30 because they like old cars. These people hit up the forums, they work on their cars, they keep their cars nice.
Now with the E36 you have a higher percentage of people who fall into that same first category of wanting a bmw to have a bmw. You have a VERY small percentage of people who have an E36 because they are car people. Then you have this third group of young people (either kids who's daddy bought it for them or just sub-30 year old people) you are tech savvy so they go on the net and lookup the forums, but they aren't car people so they don't maintain their car well. Then they wonder why they have rust issues when for the past 10 years the car has been going to a car wash in the winter and having what is essetially salt water sprayed onto it (in addition to all their other ills, many car washes also recycle the water).
Richard
Comments
Car guys do. The cars in my family, all daily drivers.
1985 MB 380SE - bought new in Jan 86 so that's 20 years of ownership
1994 Olds Bravada - bought new in Jan 94 so that's 12 years of ownership
1998 BMW 540i - bought new in Mar 98, so thats 8 years of ownership
and then the newest edition but that's throws things off since it's a new addition. There is nothing wrong with keeping cars for a long time. Ok, so that Olds needed a new engine, but that was because the dealer serviced it wrong so that was comped. The BMW has needed a radiator of some coolant hoses of course, but nothing else. The MB has only needed a cam, a timing chain, and a fuel distributor. I should note that all other than the Olds are driven hard, and I mean shifting at the redline hard.
Yeah, but the radiators are only $200 and easy to change out.
I forgot to add that Olds has also gone through a couple of heater cores, but I think the engineers knew it would because it's like 2 hours of labor even at the dealer.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Keep in mind kids, I'm not saying the cars won't last, but its just the trend, people don't keep cars outside of warranty - especially with the included service and long length of today's warranties.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Second for those who do buy the new cars, it's a little thing called resale value. A car that's designed to last 5 years isn't going to have the reliability and resale value of a car designed to last 20 years.
When you consider a majority of the US population isn't going to get to drive new car's from the time they get their license most people will own at least one older car. If that car is a peice of crap do you think they are going to want to buy from that car company when they can afford a new car?
Me I'd buy from the company that had the longest lasting most reliable cars because if something happened and I had to keep the car longer than I planned I'd want it to last, plus if I was going to get a new car I'd like to have the car that is known to last longer because I could get more money back out of it.
The "what do you care" mentality that most american automakers have is one of their biggest problems. There cars don't last as long, aren't as reliable, aren't as cutting edge or stylish, and aren't holding peoples attention.
If you knew that canon camera's lasted 5 years longer than nikon camera's, had a stronger resale value, and where more reliable. Even if you planned on pulling an andy and selling them every three months, why would you buy nikon that you knew was going to have more problems.
But then again you did buy nikon so maybe this whole mentality is lost on you.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Was there supposed to be a smiley at the end of that last sentence? We Nikon enthusiasts are wondering . . .
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
Why would there be a smiley?
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Yes, car guys are a small and decreasing minority, but if someone is in this thread I would think they'd be a car guy. It's always cheaper to maintain an old car than to buy a new one if you do your own work, and if youre a car guy you do your own work.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
You guys are so damn defensive! I'm not saying you're idiots and that old cars suck (and for one particularly defensive deity: Canon sucks), and that new cars are all designed to break in 5 years. I'm merely trying to point out the trends in the auto industry, not one of you have disputed that, you just keep going off on your tangents about how you love old cars and want your kids to drive old shitbox e30 BMW's.
edit: not all e30 bmw's are shitboxes, i know, I KNOW they are great cars with a superb track history, but we all know bmw parts aren't cheap, and any decades old car will need lots of parts. there's much better options for junior. Sheesh, you guys are like a bunch of girls, its like walking on glass all the time!
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Usually Canon (or Nikon) hyperbole is followed by some notice that the sender sends it in jest.
I'll keep on-topic and save the camera wars for the other thread . . . .
By the way, I think all GM cars stink . . .
see hot it works!
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
GM Cars do currently stink though.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
Well it's been a crappy day at work I gotta do something to make myself smile.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
and we really do agree on that topic - except if someone gave me an 06 'vette - I guess I'd have to drive it - but get rid of it before 5 years!
I knew, of course, that trees and plants had roots, stems, bark, branches and foliage that reached up toward the light. But I was coming to realize that the real magician was light itself.
Edward Steichen
We agree on that also, although I don't think it would last 5 years with me driving it. Maybe 1.
www.zxstudios.com
http://creativedragonstudios.smugmug.com
I'm not defensive, you &%^#@&!. (yes, that's a joke)
I think my point was misunderstood. I'm not saying that old cars are better necessarily, just that it's still possible to keep a car for a long time (i.e. just the face that a car is new and has electronics in it doesn't make it a ticking time bomb).
Because an E36 isn't crappy. Even if you think it is, sure that's the BMW offering, but then look at the new camaro that's going to be coming out or the challenger, or the gto, or a vette. You may what about quality those cars won't last. As cars age people figure out cheap ways to keep them on the road. Any kid who cares about cars will get the one he wants and he'll figure some way to keep it going.
That wasn't what that post was about anyway. It was about how there won't be any worthy affordable BMW's readilly available in 20-25 years.
That's because bimmerforums and roadfly are basically the car equivalent of dpreview.
In 20 years, you will be 39. That's not old. Will you see the plethora of
old cars on the road then as you do today? Not sure. But I'd be curious
to know if you dropped a load of today's American cars off in Cuba, would
they be able to keep them running the same way they've kept many of the
cars from the 50's going?
Well, I still hold that those forums are basically dpreview, but ok my full thought process is this:
think about what types of people own e30's. Two types: people who want a BMW (but not because they are car people) but can't afford anything newer. This group typically rags the cars letting them get to a point where you say "How does a car even get like that" then they junkyard the car. This person never goes to an internet foum
The second type is the kind that buys an E30 because they like old cars. These people hit up the forums, they work on their cars, they keep their cars nice.
Now with the E36 you have a higher percentage of people who fall into that same first category of wanting a bmw to have a bmw. You have a VERY small percentage of people who have an E36 because they are car people. Then you have this third group of young people (either kids who's daddy bought it for them or just sub-30 year old people) you are tech savvy so they go on the net and lookup the forums, but they aren't car people so they don't maintain their car well. Then they wonder why they have rust issues when for the past 10 years the car has been going to a car wash in the winter and having what is essetially salt water sprayed onto it (in addition to all their other ills, many car washes also recycle the water).
Richard