Why can't he make a value judgement that differs from yours without it being "Apple-bashing"? I don't see any bashing of Apple here.
Fair enough. I'll rephrase my question then. He complains that his machine crashed simply because he added more RAM, etc. etc. etc. Says he wants more reliability etc. etc. etc. Then says Apple isn't worth the extra dollars on the basis of relative performance. What he seems to be ignoring is you don't pay more for Apple because it performs faster. You pay more because it works better. He seems, however, fixated on comparing computers on $$$ per performance while complaining about stability issues, which have nothing to do with $$$ per performance.
Fair enough. I'll rephrase my question then. He complains that his machine crashed simply because he added more RAM, etc. etc. etc. Says he wants more reliability etc. etc. etc. Then says Apple isn't worth the extra dollars on the basis of relative performance. What he seems to be ignoring is you don't pay more for Apple because it performs faster. You pay more because it works better. He seems, however, fixated on comparing computers on $$$ per performance while complaining about stability issues, which have nothing to do with $$$ per performance.
Yep, I see your point. The only comment I would have to that is that he isn't (as I read it) complaining about stability in general, just that his 3 year old machine is now too slow for him and he's having trouble upgrading it.
wxwax: I agree. I too have a hard time justifying the 2x price-tag on the macs. I'd love to buy one and would love to run OSX.. but I just can't see paying that much when I can get a well equipped PC to do the same thing for 50% of the cost. In my experience the price difference is enough to buy a helluva lot of nice software.. or other toys.
I'm confused. Did you start this thread just to bash Apple? You are fed up with a machine that crashes, and yet you don't see the value in paying more for something that is actually reliable and actually works. Instead you are going back to the same store that sold you your old machine.
I'm speechless.
You aren't grasping it, merc.
I'll try to help.
The machine itself isn't broken. Adding memory caused it to crash. That, plus the loooong delays in processing 5D files, has me very frustrated.
Is that frustration worth paying twice as much? That's a lot of coin for a solution that will last 2-3 years before it too, is in need of a solution.
As for Macs being trouble free, I work around them everyday. They're computers. Computers have problems. There is no promised land of trouble free computing.
No, this isn't a Mac bashing thread. I'm being open and above board. Apparently this tweaks you. I hope you regain your speech.
I wasn't sure how the clock speeds of apples / pc's related to speed or each other (still not actually). So rightly or wrongly tended to look at benchmarks. I found that similar speed, reputable brand pc's with a comparable screen weren't that much difference in price
I wonder if that's still true? Dell's been dropping their prices.
As I said, if I buy a PC, it's back to the corner store, not a brand name. They stand by their product.
Fair enough. I'll rephrase my question then. He complains that his machine crashed simply because he added more RAM, etc. etc. etc. Says he wants more reliability etc. etc. etc. Then says Apple isn't worth the extra dollars on the basis of relative performance. What he seems to be ignoring is you don't pay more for Apple because it performs faster. You pay more because it works better. He seems, however, fixated on comparing computers on $$$ per performance while complaining about stability issues, which have nothing to do with $$$ per performance.
I think I explained it above.
Other than the crash when adding memory (which tipped the balance for me) the machine's worked fine.
It's not crash prone. It's just slow and in need of an upgrade. However, the way it behaved on Sunday was extremely annoying, to say the least.
Annoying enough to pay twice the cost of a direct replacement? Like it or not, that's the choice.
The computer has three slots. Two are taken, each with a 512. I'm thinking putting a 1GB in the third slot made it crap its pants.
I showed him the spec sheet they gave me when I had the thing made, so the type of memory should have matched. The memory itself looked different, but that may just be because so much time has passed it's been redesigned?
I'll be going back this weekend. By which time I'll have made my decision.
A coworker (an artist who works on Macs) thinks the Macbook is a real bargain.
It will support a second monitor (but not the Apple 30" display, dunno about my 21" LaCie.) The only real difference between it and the Macbook pro is the graphics card and hard drive, he says. He says the card should be fine for PS, but not for video editing (not an issue, at least, not right now.)
Waxy....a PC machine that is current ie 3.? gig with normal ram..Xp & everything else does not crash.
No-one & i mean no-one mistreats a computer more than me & i couldnt get either of mine to crash if i tried.
There is a third option. Address the memory issue on my current machine (I'm sure it's a simple thing) and limp along until next year, when the Macbook Pro will be second gen, and all the Intel problems solved. Give me time to save, too. *gulp*
There is a third option. Address the memory issue on my current machine (I'm sure it's a simple thing) and limp along until next year, when the Macbook Pro will be second gen, and all the Intel problems solved. Give me time to save, too. *gulp*
I have to admit that suggesting a new Intel-based Mac to a photographer at the moment is indeed problematic. CS2 is not a Universal Binary right now, which is why CS2 benchmarks poorly on the Intel Macs. This won't be solved until Adobe releases CS3.
I must admit, I'm seduced by the idea of a 17" Macbook Pro with the bells and whistles. But dayum, the price.
If you are not going to use it portably, which bells and whistles are you referring to?
Macbook, intergrated keyboard (with backlight) imac full keyboard.
2.16 DC vs 2.0 DC
bump up the vram in the imac, same.
120 gb 5400 rpm (could be swapped for a 100/7200) drive vs 250 gb 7200 rpm in the imac
no FW 800 on the imac, but 3 usb 2.0 ports.
I am sorry outside of portability the imac wins with a bigger screen too. I don't think I am missing anything. The MacbookPro may have a tweaked motherboard, but
In July, Intel is set to release the Conroe family of CPUs. Current expectations are that these will significantly leapfrog AMD in terms of performance, and cut down on heat/power consumption.
This should reduce prices of current Intel and AMD CPUs and motherboards, but you have to wait a couple months.
Also, AMD just released the new AM2 chipset and Athlon X2 64 5000+ CPU. These are incremental upgrades. The chipset adds support for DDR2 memory, which will be useful down the line for them.
I've found that new CPU generations tend to be a good time to get bargains on older chips. It's also a good time to get the latest/greatest because it should last a little while (as long as anything lasts in the silicon world).
There is a third option. Address the memory issue on my current machine (I'm sure it's a simple thing) and limp along until next year, when the Macbook Pro will be second gen, and all the Intel problems solved. Give me time to save, too. *gulp*
I still would not recommend replacing a desktop computer with a laptop (unless you will take it with you). If you are going to wait, buy the replacement tower, they have always been traditionally much faster, hold a lot more ram (some up to 16gb vs only 2gb in a Macbookpro), come with faster harddrives and a lot of tweaking to make them scream.
There is a third option. Address the memory issue on my current machine (I'm sure it's a simple thing) and limp along until next year, when the Macbook Pro will be second gen, and all the Intel problems solved. Give me time to save, too. *gulp*
If your system supports DDR memory, you should be replacing BOTH of your current RAM modules with two new matched modules of higher capacity. You only get a speed benefit from DDR if they're paired up.
You seem to have either a faulty RAM module *or* a faulty RAM slot on your MB. If it were me, I would return the possibly bad module, and get the two biggest ones you can find to replace the known good ones.
If your system supports DDR memory, you should be replacing BOTH of your current RAM modules with two new matched modules of higher capacity. You only get a speed benefit from DDR if they're paired up.
You seem to have either a faulty RAM module *or* a faulty RAM slot on your MB. If it were me, I would return the possibly bad module, and get the two biggest ones you can find to replace the known good ones.
Sid, we really should have started here. List your system specs-give as much detail as you possibly can (motherboard would be most helpful).
Once we have the specs it's possible you could spend as little as $150 and solve your problems immediate, plus get a nice bump in performance.
On a standard intel\amd box running 98 I'd easily (and comfortably) say that you could invest in:
1. Win XP Home O.E.M ($85)
2. 2GB Ram (DDR would be nice, but even sdram should work, if only 1GB)
3. Maybe-maybe a processor upgrade for $100.00 or so.
This would tide you over until things settle 'out there' in regard to platforms and CS3. The older stuff is so cheap right now, you really should look into it-imho.
I can easily run CS2, C1Le, RSP, Bibble, DPP, etc. on my current 'out-dated' machine. Although I complained about speed earlier in this thread, it's really not that bad.
If every keystroke was a shutter press I'd be a pro by now...
If your system supports DDR memory, you should be replacing BOTH of your current RAM modules with two new matched modules of higher capacity. You only get a speed benefit from DDR if they're paired up.
You seem to have either a faulty RAM module *or* a faulty RAM slot on your MB. If it were me, I would return the possibly bad module, and get the two biggest ones you can find to replace the known good ones.
Thanks Chris. That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure you've identified the reason for the crash.
Sid, we really should have started here. List your system specs-give as much detail as you possibly can (motherboard would be most helpful).
Once we have the specs it's possible you could spend as little as $150 and solve your problems immediate, plus get a nice bump in performance.
On a standard intel\amd box running 98 I'd easily (and comfortably) say that you could invest in:
1. Win XP Home O.E.M ($85)
2. 2GB Ram (DDR would be nice, but even sdram should work, if only 1GB)
3. Maybe-maybe a processor upgrade for $100.00 or so.
This would tide you over until things settle 'out there' in regard to platforms and CS3. The older stuff is so cheap right now, you really should look into it-imho.
I can easily run CS2, C1Le, RSP, Bibble, DPP, etc. on my current 'out-dated' machine. Although I complained about speed earlier in this thread, it's really not that bad.
That's very helpful, Mongrel, thanks. When I get home I'll check the spec sheet.
I still would not recommend replacing a desktop computer with a laptop (unless you will take it with you). If you are going to wait, buy the replacement tower, they have always been traditionally much faster, hold a lot more ram (some up to 16gb vs only 2gb in a Macbookpro), come with faster harddrives and a lot of tweaking to make them scream.
Point taken, Patrick.
Yes, I had thought of taking it on select trips, such as the one just taken, when bulky luggage wasn't an issue and many photos would be taken. I could edit on PS in the field, on a first rate machine, rather than waiting to get home.
Yes, I had thought of taking it on select trips, such as the one just taken, when bulky luggage wasn't an issue and many photos would be taken. I could edit on PS in the field, on a first rate machine, rather than waiting to get home.
Well that is a different story. I also don't see a revision B Macbook PRO coming out any time soon, so you are back to the waiting game.
Sid, we really should have started here. List your system specs-give as much detail as you possibly can (motherboard would be most helpful).
Yes and how about the actual working document size in Photoshop? Then other dgrinners can run a test and let you know the time difference on different machines set up with different amounts of ram, etc.
Yes and how about the actual working document size in Photoshop? Then other dgrinners can run a test and let you know the time difference on different machines set up with different amounts of ram, etc.
Yes. Clearly I was looking in the wrong place for document size last time.
Well that is a different story. I also don't see a revision B Macbook PRO coming out any time soon, so you are back to the waiting game.
I disagree. They're at least going to be upgrading the processor to 64bit, I think in August/September. I would call that some time soon. That would also allow for more than 2GB of RAM.
I disagree. They're at least going to be upgrading the processor to 64bit, I think in August/September. I would call that some time soon. That would also allow for more than 2GB of RAM.
That would be a nice bump, but do you think we will see it that soon? What about new desktops?
I disagree. They're at least going to be upgrading the processor to 64bit, I think in August/September. I would call that some time soon. That would also allow for more than 2GB of RAM.
Different Mac guy at work was guessing more likely the first part of next year.
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Yep, I see your point. The only comment I would have to that is that he isn't (as I read it) complaining about stability in general, just that his 3 year old machine is now too slow for him and he's having trouble upgrading it.
Yes.. If you want to compare an Apple to a Win98 box you should be looking for something running OS9 or maybe even OS8..
You aren't grasping it, merc.
I'll try to help.
The machine itself isn't broken. Adding memory caused it to crash. That, plus the loooong delays in processing 5D files, has me very frustrated.
Is that frustration worth paying twice as much? That's a lot of coin for a solution that will last 2-3 years before it too, is in need of a solution.
As for Macs being trouble free, I work around them everyday. They're computers. Computers have problems. There is no promised land of trouble free computing.
No, this isn't a Mac bashing thread. I'm being open and above board. Apparently this tweaks you. I hope you regain your speech.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
As I said, if I buy a PC, it's back to the corner store, not a brand name. They stand by their product.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I think I explained it above.
Other than the crash when adding memory (which tipped the balance for me) the machine's worked fine.
It's not crash prone. It's just slow and in need of an upgrade. However, the way it behaved on Sunday was extremely annoying, to say the least.
Annoying enough to pay twice the cost of a direct replacement? Like it or not, that's the choice.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
bad ram?
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
The computer has three slots. Two are taken, each with a 512. I'm thinking putting a 1GB in the third slot made it crap its pants.
I showed him the spec sheet they gave me when I had the thing made, so the type of memory should have matched. The memory itself looked different, but that may just be because so much time has passed it's been redesigned?
I'll be going back this weekend. By which time I'll have made my decision.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
If you are looking for Photoshop performance why not a G5 tower? They are still very fast? You have a PC to do PC stuff, make a photoshop machine.
Go work on one at an Apple Store.
Why do people pay for a sports car instead of all buying Honda Civic's?
Is the PC you are building souped up for PS or just a good PC? Just as a gamer would want a different computer than a home user with word and surfing.
It will support a second monitor (but not the Apple 30" display, dunno about my 21" LaCie.) The only real difference between it and the Macbook pro is the graphics card and hard drive, he says. He says the card should be fine for PS, but not for video editing (not an issue, at least, not right now.)
That would leave me with a second screen of 13".
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
No-one & i mean no-one mistreats a computer more than me & i couldnt get either of mine to crash if i tried.
I must admit, I'm seduced by the idea of a 17" Macbook Pro with the bells and whistles. But dayum, the price.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
There is a third option. Address the memory issue on my current machine (I'm sure it's a simple thing) and limp along until next year, when the Macbook Pro will be second gen, and all the Intel problems solved. Give me time to save, too. *gulp*
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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If you are not going to use it portably, which bells and whistles are you referring to?
Macbook, intergrated keyboard (with backlight) imac full keyboard.
2.16 DC vs 2.0 DC
bump up the vram in the imac, same.
120 gb 5400 rpm (could be swapped for a 100/7200) drive vs 250 gb 7200 rpm in the imac
no FW 800 on the imac, but 3 usb 2.0 ports.
I am sorry outside of portability the imac wins with a bigger screen too.
Macbook Pro Specs
Macbook Specs
imac Specs
In July, Intel is set to release the Conroe family of CPUs. Current expectations are that these will significantly leapfrog AMD in terms of performance, and cut down on heat/power consumption.
This should reduce prices of current Intel and AMD CPUs and motherboards, but you have to wait a couple months.
Also, AMD just released the new AM2 chipset and Athlon X2 64 5000+ CPU. These are incremental upgrades. The chipset adds support for DDR2 memory, which will be useful down the line for them.
I've found that new CPU generations tend to be a good time to get bargains on older chips. It's also a good time to get the latest/greatest because it should last a little while (as long as anything lasts in the silicon world).
I still would not recommend replacing a desktop computer with a laptop (unless you will take it with you). If you are going to wait, buy the replacement tower, they have always been traditionally much faster, hold a lot more ram (some up to 16gb vs only 2gb in a Macbookpro), come with faster harddrives and a lot of tweaking to make them scream.
If your system supports DDR memory, you should be replacing BOTH of your current RAM modules with two new matched modules of higher capacity. You only get a speed benefit from DDR if they're paired up.
You seem to have either a faulty RAM module *or* a faulty RAM slot on your MB. If it were me, I would return the possibly bad module, and get the two biggest ones you can find to replace the known good ones.
Sid, we really should have started here. List your system specs-give as much detail as you possibly can (motherboard would be most helpful).
Once we have the specs it's possible you could spend as little as $150 and solve your problems immediate, plus get a nice bump in performance.
On a standard intel\amd box running 98 I'd easily (and comfortably) say that you could invest in:
1. Win XP Home O.E.M ($85)
2. 2GB Ram (DDR would be nice, but even sdram should work, if only 1GB)
3. Maybe-maybe a processor upgrade for $100.00 or so.
This would tide you over until things settle 'out there' in regard to platforms and CS3. The older stuff is so cheap right now, you really should look into it-imho.
I can easily run CS2, C1Le, RSP, Bibble, DPP, etc. on my current 'out-dated' machine. Although I complained about speed earlier in this thread, it's really not that bad.
Thanks Chris. That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure you've identified the reason for the crash.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
That's very helpful, Mongrel, thanks. When I get home I'll check the spec sheet.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Yes, I had thought of taking it on select trips, such as the one just taken, when bulky luggage wasn't an issue and many photos would be taken. I could edit on PS in the field, on a first rate machine, rather than waiting to get home.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Well that is a different story. I also don't see a revision B Macbook PRO coming out any time soon, so you are back to the waiting game.
Yes and how about the actual working document size in Photoshop? Then other dgrinners can run a test and let you know the time difference on different machines set up with different amounts of ram, etc.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I bet this will have a lot to do with the slow performance.
I disagree. They're at least going to be upgrading the processor to 64bit, I think in August/September. I would call that some time soon. That would also allow for more than 2GB of RAM.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
That would be a nice bump, but do you think we will see it that soon? What about new desktops?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au