New Computer Time: Why Not Apple?

wxwax

I've finally had it with my computer's agonizingly slow processing of 5D files.

I even tried adding 1GB of memory this weekend, the whole thing crashed, the video card gave itself some weird setting, I spent hours putting things back and recalibrating, my desktop pile of magazines nosed dived to the floor, taking the lamp and breaking it.... aaaaghhh!

Enough!

I yearn for a machine that's faster, reliable and just plain works.

Being the open-minded chap I am, I'm completely open to a Mac. And yet, a Mac doesn't make sense. Principally, it's because they cost twice as much, are not appreciably faster in real world terms, and become obsolete about as quickly as a PC. I thought about a 17" Macbook, running the laptop screen as my second monitor. But I really should wait until the 2nd generation comes out. And I don't want to wait. And all of my above reservations about Macs apply to the Macbook, too.

My option?

Go back to the local store that built and sold me my current machine. I can get the fastest AMD processor (currently the king of the hill, faster even than Macbook's Intel chip) with lots of memory for about $900. At that price, a two-year lifespan is affordable. Insane, but affordable.

So, that's probably what I'm going to do.

gus

Thats what i did mate...bought a 3. something box, 2 gig ram & 256 video card for about that money...make sure you get a card reader that sits in the front of the box so you can easy access your cards. Runs like a bullet with RAW files & life is good.

..my 2 bob & i want it brought to the attention of the court that i didnt bag macburgers once in my reply.

wxwax

gus wrote:

Thats what i did mate...bought a 3. something box, 2 gig ram & 256 video card for about that money...make sure you get a card reader that sits in the front of the box so you can easy access your cards. Runs like a bullet with RAW files & life is good.

..my 2 bob & i want it brought to the attention of the court that i didnt bag macburgers once in my reply.

Sounds like I'm on your page, mate. Can't make the math work any other way.

Andy

DanielB

read zeez

my mac convincing thread: http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=7386

andy's mac convincing thread: http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=34290

DavidTO

I'm not looking to troll, but honestly, I believe that the answer to your question is that you're short-sighted in your analysis.

gus

Hey waxy...you want it to be able to do the job effectively for a price or are you looking for an expensive show pony ?

DavidTO

gus wrote:

Hey waxy...you want it to be able to do the job effectively for a price or are you looking for an expensive show pony ?

Not biting, Gus.

wxwax

DavidTO wrote:

I'm not looking to troll, but honestly, I believe that the answer to your question is that you're short-sighted in your analysis.

I told you I'm open minded. In what way am I being short sighted?

Mongrel

Must be something in the air....
This same question has been taking up wayyy too much space in my head the last week or so....

Current machine ain't that bad (AMD 2800+ XP, 2GB PC3200 DDR, dual-channel nVidia board, two pretty fast Seagate 160GB ATA drives, yadda, yadda...).

But I've been processing several hundred RAW files from a school play, and between that and the uploading I've been getting pretty antsy

I love the specs on the MACs, but as usual cash is tight (when isn't it?), and I'm having a hard time "doing the math" to justify it. The other concern is the literally hundreds if not thousands of dollars in software that I'd lose :uhoh

With dual-core PCs available (either pre-built or parts) for around a grand and the benchmarks to compete very well with the Mac-boxes, is it really worth a platform change

Basically, with a new mother board and an AMD dual-core I'd be up and running. If I went with an Intel board, I'd have to pick up DDR2 and a processor, and I'd be up and running.

Lastly, the 20" iMac I was looking at for around $1600 did rather poorly in some CS2 benches in comparison to the dual-core G5, a Wintel 'core-duo' box, and an AMD Opteron box.

decisions, decisions.....

wxwax

That's how I see it, Mongrel.

Apparently, I'm being shortsighted.

marlof

I always get a simple Windows desktop. Nothing beats that in sheer price/functionality. I do get Apple notebooks, since they're so well designed, and all notebooks are bloody expensive for what you get, so Win machines don't have a particular advantage there.

wxwax

marlof wrote:

I always get a simple Windows desktop. Nothing beats that in sheer price/functionality. I do get Apple notebooks, since they're so well designed, and all notebooks are bloody expensive for what you get, so Win machines don't have a particular advantage there.

As I said, I see the appeal of a Macbook Pro running my Lacie monitor. But I'd have to wait for the first generation quirks to be solved. And I'd have to pay more than twice as much as for a PC with similar performance.

marlof

Very wise. Never buy Rev A Apple hardware is my motto. So I fully agree that this might not be the best moment in life to become a switcher, since all Intel based Macs are Rev A, and the G5 is being faded out.

When you speak about PC, do you mean a notebook (Apple portable computers no longer can be called laptops.....) or a desktop? I know you'd have to pay a bit of a premium to get a Mac, but I've not seen something comparable (desktop-desktop; notebook-notebook) that would have you pay double the price. So what are the two setups you're comparing?

gubbs

Imac 20"
Sid,

I swapped for an easy life!
As you know my PC had some problems which I just couldn't get to the bottom of. I know things can go wrong with any system so for me it's how the problems are likely to be resolved that's more important.
Advent Customer services were useless, when, or if, I actually got through to them it seemed to be their policy to blame the software. After many hours on the phone without resolution I gave up & got an independant engineer to have a look but he was unable to give a definitive diagnosis either. If I had of replaced all the possiblities he gave, I would have pretty much ended up with a new machine anyway

I am sure there are PC suppliers out there that also have good customer services but the fact that with apple the hardware and os come from the same supplier ensures that there is no responsiblity dodging.
This coupled with talk of top notch customer service from apple was a powerful influence for me to make the swap.
I have had a couple of problems with the mac, first was due to my inexperience with OSX, the second was more serious. After installing the os updates the machine refused to boot. In both cases apple customer services were 1st class and sorted me out quickly and efficiently.

I find the speed, even under Rosetta to be acceptable, I had 500 5D RAW shots to process last weekend. Using this workflow which allows a lot of the work to go in the background or while I'm eating/sleeping etc...I have no complaints. I'd like more speed but it's not a big issue.
I am dissapointed adobe are taking so long to release a universal version of CS but if the speed increase of the the new noise ninja universal version is anything to go by it should be worth the wait.

I prefer using OSX to XP, but it's not a WOW and not enough of a reason to swap...
I do love how everything just works though!! No hardware wizards, no conflicts, no lock ups, no crashes (well just the 1 ), no worries! I start a batch process, I walk away and I'm confident it will finish. IMO far more important than raw speed.

The screen is excellent, the design, even the box is cool. Erin doesn't mind it in the lounge
My gut feeling is that the resell value is better

I'm glad I swapped :

gus

Seriously....you lost your original av ?

Mongrel

hmmm....

gubbs wrote:

I do love how everything just works though!! No hardware wizards, no conflicts, no lock ups, no crashes (well just the 1 ), no worries! I start a batch process, I walk away and I'm confident it will finish. IMO far more important than raw speed.

While I can certainly appreciate that "everything just works" I can honestly say that I just have not experienced "conflicts, lockups, and crashes" to any real extent using XP!

Just doesn't happen (once I got the initial setup complete). I have four home-built XP boxes in my home right now, and apart from a hard drive failure on a secondary machine, they all just hum along 24/7 and have been soing so for over a year (one machine over THREE years!).

Consider this-

My thirteen year old daughter and my wife share a computer with the following specs:

ASUS P2B (BX baby, BX!!! )
Intel PIII 733 Coppermine OVERCLOCKED to 933 (since the first week I had it).
768MB memory
IBM 20GB HD
GeForce 2 Pro GT graphics card
DVD player
Soundblaster Live! value soundcard
XP Home

Neither of these two know anything about PC's or PC maintenance. I can't even get them to log off the internet . But guess what? The ONLY failure on that machine in the last FOUR YEARS was the fan on the graphics card Think about it, the motherboard alone is probably five years old (I pulled if from another machine to build this one...).

So when I hear of 'issues' with Windows boxes

Bottom line is that I'm completely comfortable with a Win-tel or Win-AMD box, but if a MAC would really and truly offer me something unique then I'd go for it.

patch29

I am missing why you would not want the 20" imac, since you intend to use it at home.

You get a 250gb 7200 rpm drive, 20" LCD, full keyboard, retain ability to run a second monitor and you can save $$ vs a Macbookpro if you don't need to take it on the road. You could take it with you in an ilugger bag. I have a friend that does it all the time and loves it. Upgrade the graphics to 256mb. It is a step down from the Macbook, but if you are not playing games, I would be you will never notice. Photoshop isn't the only program to use, maybe you will like iphoto or aperture or Caputre One (which is fast on an intel mac). You are looking to buy a Mac, time to Think Different. Time for you to take a trip to the Apple Store and test out a few machines, bring a few 5D files and see what you like, try iphoto and aperture. If you have a full install copy of XP service pack 2 you can boot in XP no problem and have the option of either OS.

gubbs

Mongrel wrote:

While I can certainly appreciate that "everything just works" I can honestly say that I just have not experienced "conflicts, lockups, and crashes" to any real extent using XP!

My pc did have a problem which I am sure was responsible for most of my issues, so maybe I'm being unfair. At work I'm still on 98 which locks up on a daily basis, I guess I'm guilty of tarnishing all with the same brush !

edit: I should also add that my xp laptop is very stable.

DavidTO

wxwax wrote:

I told you I'm open minded. In what way am I being short sighted?

I think the long-term costs are at least equivalent, if not lower for a Mac. You get more as far as bundled software, the time saved in not having to deal with all the malware (not that you should ignore it, but you do save time on a Mac), etc.

wxwax

marlof wrote:

Very wise. Never buy Rev A Apple hardware is my motto. So I fully agree that this might not be the best moment in life to become a switcher, since all Intel based Macs are Rev A, and the G5 is being faded out.

When you speak about PC, do you mean a notebook (Apple portable computers no longer can be called laptops.....) or a desktop? I know you'd have to pay a bit of a premium to get a Mac, but I've not seen something comparable (desktop-desktop; notebook-notebook) that would have you pay double the price. So what are the two setups you're comparing?

I'm comparing a Macbook Pro 17" to a desktop from the corner store. Similar perfomance and features.

I already have a Sony Vaio laptop, so the Macbook would serve as a desktop with a second monitor hooked-up.

wxwax

DavidTO wrote:

I think the long-term costs are at least equivalent, if not lower for a Mac. You get more as far as bundled software, the time saved in not having to deal with all the malware (not that you should ignore it, but you do save time on a Mac), etc.

Thanks, David.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But right now, I see the obsolescence rate of Macs and PCs as being roughly parallel. IOW, about every 2 years or so, hardware and software (cameras and PS) require an upgrade in processing speed.

That's a big sticking point for me, as I'm now on my third upgrade and see the pattern clearly. This upgrade cycle is why I see computers as disposable and why I'm loathe to spend (literally) more than twice as much on a Mac.

I have the software I currently need (minus the inevitable PS upgrade.) And I have the hardware I need (I assume I'd have to mess with my external HDs to format them for a Mac?)

And truly, I find you overstate the time needed to protect a PC from malware. As Gubbs sets his machine processing overnight/over dinner etc., so do i set mine to run debugging programs while I'm away. Pain free.

I'm not looking for a fight, David. I sincerely appreciate your feedback. It's just from where I'm sitting, looking at the need for yet another computer upgrade in 2-3 years, it's hard to justify the premium I'd have to pay for a Mac.

wxwax

patch29 wrote:

I am missing why you would not want the 20" imac, since you intend to use it at home.

You get a 250gb 7200 rpm drive, 20" LCD, full keyboard, retain ability to run a second monitor and you can save $$ vs a Macbookpro if you don't need to take it on the road. You could take it with you in an ilugger bag. I have a friend that does it all the time and loves it. Upgrade the graphics to 256mb. It is a step down from the Macbook, but if you are not playing games, I would be you will never notice. Photoshop isn't the only program to use, maybe you will like iphoto or aperture or Caputre One (which is fast on an intel mac). You are looking to buy a Mac, time to Think Different. Time for you to take a trip to the Apple Store and test out a few machines, bring a few 5D files and see what you like, try iphoto and aperture. If you have a full install copy of XP service pack 2 you can boot in XP no problem and have the option of either OS.

Thanks, I went to Apple to look it up.

Does it dual boot with XP? They didn't say. Rightly or wrongly, that's part of the appeal of the Macbook Pro.

For a 20", with 2GB memory, and fastest graphics card, and smallest hard drive (I have externals) the cost is $2,243.

As I said, that's more than twice as much as the PC from the corner store. For a machine that will likely need an upgrade in 2-3 years.

wxwax

gubbs wrote:

Sid,

I swapped for an easy life!
As you know my PC had some problems which I just couldn't get to the bottom of. I know things can go wrong with any system so for me it's how the problems are likely to be resolved that's more important.
Advent Customer services were useless, when, or if, I actually got through to them it seemed to be their policy to blame the software. After many hours on the phone without resolution I gave up & got an independant engineer to have a look but he was unable to give a definitive diagnosis either. If I had of replaced all the possiblities he gave, I would have pretty much ended up with a new machine anyway

I am sure there are PC suppliers out there that also have good customer services but the fact that with apple the hardware and os come from the same supplier ensures that there is no responsiblity dodging.
This coupled with talk of top notch customer service from apple was a powerful influence for me to make the swap.
I have had a couple of problems with the mac, first was due to my inexperience with OSX, the second was more serious. After installing the os updates the machine refused to boot. In both cases apple customer services were 1st class and sorted me out quickly and efficiently.

I find the speed, even under Rosetta to be acceptable, I had 500 5D RAW shots to process last weekend. Using this workflow which allows a lot of the work to go in the background or while I'm eating/sleeping etc...I have no complaints. I'd like more speed but it's not a big issue.
I am dissapointed adobe are taking so long to release a universal version of CS but if the speed increase of the the new noise ninja universal version is anything to go by it should be worth the wait.

I prefer using OSX to XP, but it's not a WOW and not enough of a reason to swap...
I do love how everything just works though!! No hardware wizards, no conflicts, no lock ups, no crashes (well just the 1 ), no worries! I start a batch process, I walk away and I'm confident it will finish. IMO far more important than raw speed.

The screen is excellent, the design, even the box is cool. Erin doesn't mind it in the lounge
My gut feeling is that the resell value is better

I'm glad I swapped :

Gubbs, thanks for your thoughtful and detailed post.

Honestly, the appeal of ease-of-use and good service is strong, especially after my weekend wrestling match. I'm ready for it. But at what cost?

patch29

wxwax wrote:

Thanks, I went to Apple to look it up.

Does it dual boot with XP? They didn't say. Rightly or wrongly, that's part of the appeal of the Macbook Pro.

For a 20", with 2GB memory, and fastest graphics card, and smallest hard drive (I have externals) the cost is $2,243.

As I said, that's more than twice as much as the PC from the corner store. For a machine that will likely need an upgrade in 2-3 years.

Don't forget to go the the NAPP discount page and it will drop the price some.

I believe it runs XP via bootcamp, just as the Macbook's do.

For starters you will now have two computers in one. You are also getting a 20" widescreen monitor, which I do not think you factored into the other computer. Then you get a much smaller computer footprint.

I don't know if I buy the need to buy a new computer every 2-3 years statement. I don't have any plans to replace my G5 and it is almost half way through your replacement cycle. My 3.5 year old laptop still works. The main reason I bought the new one was to get a smaller laptop and run XP. I am also happy to have a lot of new features, but many of them are also available on my G5. You are also not comparing Apple's to Apple's. You are trying to compare a window's tower with a Mac laptop. Not laptop to laptop. Apple will eventually release an Intel based tower and it will probably be super fast, but you will have to wait.

mercphoto

You get what you pay for

wxwax wrote:

I've finally had it with my computer's agonizingly slow processing of 5D files.

I even tried adding 1GB of memory this weekend, the whole thing crashed, the video card gave itself some weird setting, I spent hours putting things back and recalibrating, my desktop pile of magazines nosed dived to the floor, taking the lamp and breaking it.... aaaaghhh!

Enough!

I yearn for a machine that's faster, reliable and just plain works.

Being the open-minded chap I am, I'm completely open to a Mac. And yet, a Mac doesn't make sense. Principally, it's because they cost twice as much, are not appreciably faster in real world terms, and become obsolete about as quickly as a PC.

I'm confused. Did you start this thread just to bash Apple? You are fed up with a machine that crashes, and yet you don't see the value in paying more for something that is actually reliable and actually works. Instead you are going back to the same store that sold you your old machine.

I'm speechless.

mpmcleod

Mongrel wrote:

I have four home-built XP boxes in my home right now,

My thirteen year old daughter and my wife share a computer with the following specs:

Now how cool is that!

You have 3 computers for yourself and your wife and daughter share one....

DJ-S1

mercphoto wrote:

I'm confused. Did you start this thread just to bash Apple? You are fed up with a machine that crashes, and yet you don't see the value in paying more for something that is actually reliable and actually works. Instead you are going back to the same store that sold you your old machine.

I'm speechless.

Why can't he make a value judgement that differs from yours without it being "Apple-bashing"? I don't see any bashing of Apple here.

gubbs

wxwax wrote:

Gubbs, thanks for your thoughtful and detailed post.

Honestly, the appeal of ease-of-use and good service is strong, especially after my weekend wrestling match. I'm ready for it. But at what cost?

I wasn't sure how the clock speeds of apples / pc's related to speed or each other (still not actually). So rightly or wrongly tended to look at benchmarks. I found that similar speed, reputable brand pc's with a comparable screen weren't that much difference in price

DavidTO

wxwax wrote:

Thanks, David.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But right now, I see the obsolescence rate of Macs and PCs as being roughly parallel. IOW, about every 2 years or so, hardware and software (cameras and PS) require an upgrade in processing speed.

I just upgraded my laptop, which was 3.5 years old. It's still going great. The biggest reason I upgraded? No USB 2.0 for my new iPod. Other than that, no complaints.

DavidTO

patch29 wrote:

Don't forget to go the the NAPP discount page and it will drop the price some.

I bought my latest macbook pro from amazon and used an elaborate matrix of money-saving ventures to shave some of the cost. Wish I had bought it from Apple, in spite of the higher cost and tax I would have paid. My logic board failed after 5 days, I took it to the Apple store near me. They would have replaced it with a new one right then and there. Now that's service. Instead, I had to send it in for repair...