Options

The Car Talk Thread

1545557596066

Comments

  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 26, 2007
    cletus wrote:
    Just a few questions I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly don't know the answers:
    • Any idea on the number of multi-car teams vs. single car teams?
    • Do some of the lower budget teams try to get by with one chassis while a bigger budget team would have a short track chassis and a super speedway chassis?
    • Does NASCAR have rules about how, where and when a team can do on track testing?
    • Has anyone ever done an estimate of what the per car budgets are and what the range of budgets from the front to the back of the field is like?

    Um...well, I'm not the authority on this stuff, but first, I was being inexact with my language. Every team is multi-car and then some owners own multiple teams is I guess what I mean. So for instance, there are many Lowe's cars, the Lowe's car is owned by Hendrik Motorsports which in turn owns 4 teams. There are also multiple DLP HDTV cars, but Hall of Fame Racing, which owns those cars, has only 1 team. I would say the majority of owners own more than one team, Roush owns the most at 5, then Hendrick and Childress at 4, and a whole slew of owners have 2 or 3 teams each. Actually, when trying to think of a 1 team owner, it took me a while.

    The chassis thing I don't know. You'd think I would, but I don't. There are only 2 road race tracks, and one of them is Busch series only, so it's not really a big deal though. As far as I knew, the short track/intermediate track/long track specific cars referred to basic setups (engine power curves, basic gearing, basic suspension) so they don't have to redo everything each time.

    I don't think there is much in the way of on-track testing rules, but this is a pretty level field since you can rent out a track for about $3000

    I don't know budgets, but I know primary sponsorship runs $10million+, you get everything (well, of course 3M and all those are still on there, but all the main parts of the car, pillars, all of the hood, inside, uniform, etc) for about $15 million. Then of course there are all those other places for sponsorship, and winnings can get pretty big, so you know there's got to be some big budgets.
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 26, 2007
  • Options
    cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited March 26, 2007
    Um...well, I'm not the authority on this stuff, but ...

    Thanks for the info thumb.gif
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
  • Options
    wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    It's called the Car of Tomorrow because it is saying that in the future with super high powered cars we need to be more concerned with safety, and this car brings that future to now. The thing is, IMHO people don't go to races to watch cars go slower than they did last year, and on top of that ask any driver, things that make things "safer" but also make them more equal (like restrictor plates) actually make things more dangerous for the drivers. From the fan point of view, yeah cars doing 220mph would be dangerous for fans, but when you go to a race you cheat your way as close as you can to the fence and it's not because you think it's safe but because quite frankly you don't care you want to have fun and are willing to take the risk.

    And there's no such thing as a poor team in NASCAR. Even the one car teams get enough money from that one sponsor to cover their costs. The benefit of having a multi-car team is - you can share parts/tires with each other more easily, you can share thoughts and advice with each other more easily, and you more easily find drafting partners.

    Sorry, man, gotta disagree with you on a couple of points.

    The average fan doesn't know or care if the cars are going 200 or 220. He justs wants racing, rubbin' and a little excitement.

    And there certainly are rich and poor teams in NASCAR. Take a look at the chart at the bottom of this story. A huge difference in revenue, in just the top 15 teams, let alone teams like Front Page, BAM Racing, Wood Brothers, or the dozen part time teams.
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    wxwax wrote:
    Sorry, man, gotta disagree with you on a couple of points.

    The average fan doesn't know or care if the cars are going 200 or 220. He justs wants racing, rubbin' and a little excitement.

    And there certainly are rich and poor teams in NASCAR. Take a look at the chart at the bottom of this story. A huge difference in revenue, in just the top 15 teams, let alone teams like Front Page, BAM Racing, Wood Brothers, or the dozen part time teams.

    I can't pull up the article becaues I'm not a paying subscriber.

    I don't count the part time teams, and among the full time teams sure some are insanely wealthy, but nobody is scraping by to make ends meet, everyone has what it takes to run their cars proper. How many single car teams are there even? Wood Brothers, Furniture Row Racing, CJM Racing, Haas CNC racing, and as far as I can tell that's it.

    Also, a lot of people watch NASCAR on TV, or use that thing on the nascar website, and with those you do know how fast everybody is going, so it does matter more than I think people give it credit for mattering.
  • Options
    VespaFitzVespaFitz Registered Users Posts: 19 Big grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    cletus wrote:
    Just a few questions I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly don't know the answers:
    • Any idea on the number of multi-car teams vs. single car teams?
    • Do some of the lower budget teams try to get by with one chassis while a bigger budget team would have a short track chassis and a super speedway chassis?
    • Does NASCAR have rules about how, where and when a team can do on track testing?
    • Has anyone ever done an estimate of what the per car budgets are and what the range of budgets from the front to the back of the field is like?

    Bah. Who cares. I quit watching NASCAR when sponsoring a race got too rich for Goody's Headache Powder. :D

    I really miss the old Busch Grand National and Grand National North series. They raced V-6 cars almost exclusively.

    My favorite was a guy named Dick "The Irish Angel" McCabe. He sold bait to lobsterman in Maine 16 hours a day, and then he'd go race at Oxford Plains Speedway. He drove the the Fisher Snow Plows car.

    He used to race against guys with classic Yankee race car driver names like "Stub" Fadden, Beaver Dragon and Robbie Crouch. rolleyes1.gif

    Once it got too rich for guys like that to compete, I bailed out.
  • Options
    cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    VespaFitz wrote:
    Bah. Who cares. I quit watching NASCAR when sponsoring a race got too rich for Goody's Headache Powder. :D

    I really miss the old Busch Grand National and Grand National North series. They raced V-6 cars almost exclusively.

    My favorite was a guy named Dick "The Irish Angel" McCabe. He sold bait to lobsterman in Maine 16 hours a day, and then he'd go race at Oxford Plains Speedway. He drove the the Fisher Snow Plows car.

    He used to race against guys with classic Yankee race car driver names like "Stub" Fadden, Beaver Dragon and Robbie Crouch. rolleyes1.gif

    Once it got too rich for guys like that to compete, I bailed out.
    I think I'll have at least some interest in NASCAR until Mark Martin retires. He seems like a really good guy and he's also quite a driver. Years ago he was teamed up with Paul Newman at the 24 hours of Daytona. IIRC something happened like the third driver on the team got sick and Newman couldn't drive the car after dark so Martin drove the car pretty much all night long... and did a damn good job too. Ever since then I've been a fan.

    Besides, I'm waiting for Montoya to have some kind of meltdown.
  • Options
    mercphotomercphoto Registered Users Posts: 4,550 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    cletus wrote:
    Besides, I'm waiting for Montoya to have some kind of meltdown.
    If NASCAR continues with its tradition of phantom yellows to manipulate races not only will Montoya have a meltdown but so will Chip! Screwed out of his first race win because NASCAR didn't want all those front runners to run out of gas on the last lap...
    Bill Jurasz - Mercury Photography - Cedar Park, TX
    A former sports shooter
    Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
    My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
  • Options
    cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    VespaFitz wrote:
    Bah. Who cares. I quit watching NASCAR when sponsoring a race got too rich for Goody's Headache Powder. :D

    Better grab a twelve pack of PBR and get your butt on the couch... This weekends race??? The Goody's Cool Orange 500 from Martinsville!!! clap.gifwings.gifthumb.gif
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 27, 2007
    Zac, you looking for a 6-speed conversion kit that will "fit any M60/62 rear wheel drive car -- E31/E32/E34/E38/E39. Looking for around $2400 on everything, ~90k and clean."
  • Options
    antriebantrieb Registered Users Posts: 285 Major grins
    edited March 28, 2007
    Zac, you looking for a 6-speed conversion kit that will "fit any M60/62 rear wheel drive car -- E31/E32/E34/E38/E39. Looking for around $2400 on everything, ~90k and clean."
    No, but thanks for thinking of me! My car has a 5-speed and it will do just fine. Even has the same ratios as the 6-speed. Lighter too!
    Photography runs in my blood :andy

    http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/
  • Options
    ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,916 moderator
    edited March 28, 2007
    Hey Fitz! Hugs and kisses to Lisa and Katie!
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 28, 2007
    antrieb wrote:
    No, but thanks for thinking of me! My car has a 5-speed and it will do just fine. Even has the same ratios as the 6-speed. Lighter too!

    Yeah, I found out later that you actually know the person who has it, and he's talked to you about your car (you were going to buy the engine out of his parts 740).
  • Options
    antriebantrieb Registered Users Posts: 285 Major grins
    edited March 29, 2007
    Yeah, I found out later that you actually know the person who has it, and he's talked to you about your car (you were going to buy the engine out of his parts 740).
    Whit I believe his name was? I was about to buy that engine when I found one for half the price with a warranty. Nice guy though.

    By the way, my engine is almost completely out. Should be out by the end of the day Thursday.
    Photography runs in my blood :andy

    http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 29, 2007
    antrieb wrote:
    Whit I believe his name was?

    Yep. He went to my college (we knew each other while he was here, he was a year ahead of me so he's already graduated). He's got a V12 E34 project going on now.
  • Options
    bwgbwg Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 2,119 SmugMug Employee
    edited March 29, 2007
    cletus wrote:
    Just a few questions I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I honestly don't know the answers:
    • Any idea on the number of multi-car teams vs. single car teams?
    • Do some of the lower budget teams try to get by with one chassis while a bigger budget team would have a short track chassis and a super speedway chassis?
    • Does NASCAR have rules about how, where and when a team can do on track testing?
    • Has anyone ever done an estimate of what the per car budgets are and what the range of budgets from the front to the back of the field is like?
    Most of the teams out there are multi-car teams. It basically became impossible to be competitive as a single car team because obviously it's much harder to afford the engineering and mechanical resources that the multi-car teams can share. I read somewhere that owners have found that an even number of teams works better than an odd number with 4 being the ideal number cost wise. Don't ask me how that works out, but you always hear of 3 car teams like Gibbs, Childress and DEI trying to find a sponsor/driver for a fourth team.

    The only full time single car teams I can think of are Robby Gordon, HOF racing, Wood Brothers and Morgan McClure. Of those teams, Robby Gordon and Wood Brothers use motors from Roush/Yates and HOF uses motors from Hendrick (as does Ginn racing). That helps keep R&D costs down for the less funded teams.

    All teams have restrictor plate cars, superspeedway cars and short track cars. The field is so competitive at those tracks that the smallest detail can make a difference between even making the race. Restrictor plate cars in particular are a worked on for months to make them as aerodynamic as possible. Bodies are hung, tested in the wind tunnel and re-hung. The superspeedway cars are extremely specialized. If you ever see one in person they are actually twisted along the length of the car so as to get the right rear spoiler up in the air as much as possible. Road course cars not so much. I know Hendrick in particular builds road course cars but I would feel safe saying that if the less funded teams had to skimp on any one area, this would be it. And Marlin, there are 2 on the cup circuit. Infineon and Watkins Glen. The Busch series only road course race is in Mexico City.

    Teams have a limited number of tests at tracks on the circuit in a given year. This is another area where the multi-car teams have a HUGE advantage as each team in the organization has lets say 7 tests, so if you have a 4 car team you'll have 28 tests vs 7 for a single car team. NASCAR is looking at changing this for multi-car teams to make it less of an advantage, if they haven't changed it already. You can test anytime you want on a track that's not on the circuit. Many teams test at the 1.5 mile Kentucky speedway and at Virginia International Raceway for road courses. I've heard of teams testing at Rockingham now that it's no longer on the circuit too. Goodyear will also invite teams to do "tire testing" and those tests don't count against your number for the year.

    edit: turns out NASCAR did update the testing policy effective last season. http://jayski.com/stats/testing/testing2007.htm

    Sponsorship money is a very closely guarded secret in the NASCAR world. I don't know the number off the top of my head but when UPS joined Yates 5 or so years ago it was supposedly an obscene number for what was going on at the time. It's probably fair to say that that number has been surpassed by now. Of course it helps to be independantly wealthy. Robby Gordon has sponsorship problems this year and can bankroll his car out of his pocket for most of the year if he needs to. Roush bankrolled a car for Jeff Burton 3 years ago when they didnt have a sponsor.

    139265128-L-3.jpg
    Pedal faster
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited March 31, 2007
    I was very surprised today. My friend is buying a car (not brand new but recent) so we went and test drove a bunch of things (M5, CL600, 996 Porsche C2, Volvo S60R) and we also looked at a bunch of stuff we decided wasn't worth test driving. For some reason my favorite (well, I had 2 favorites, but the Porsche didn't count since he decided it was too impractical) was the S60R. We only looked because we happened to pass the dealer and said "hey, it's worth a look at least"
  • Options
    antriebantrieb Registered Users Posts: 285 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2007
    I was very surprised today. My friend is buying a car (not brand new but recent) so we went and test drove a bunch of things (M5, CL600, 996 Porsche C2, Volvo S60R) and we also looked at a bunch of stuff we decided wasn't worth test driving. For some reason my favorite (well, I had 2 favorites, but the Porsche didn't count since he decided it was too impractical) was the S60R. We only looked because we happened to pass the dealer and said "hey, it's worth a look at least"
    See the Top Gear drive of the S60R?
    Photography runs in my blood :andy

    http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2007
    antrieb wrote:
    See the Top Gear drive of the S60R?

    No, and I can't find it anywhere on youtube. What did they think?

    Oddly enough I liked the 2001 M5 less than I like my bros 1998 540iA.

    I'm guessing they didn't have good things to say considering how slow their lap time was. And I'll agree, as far as pure speed sure it wasn't my favorite, but as a total package with practicality and comfort included in consideration, I liked it. The seats rivalved my 380SE's (the new ones, not the old beat up ones that were in it until a month ago) in comfort (maybe even, gasp, more comfortable for long drives). And when the suspension was set to advanced mode it felt really nice.

    Found it. They seemed to like it and hate it and said to get an S4. Well, S4 is one we didn't test drive (there were none in the area in his price range, there are plenty in his price range, just not in this area at the moment), but one thing I always wonder when I see complaints about understeer is, why not just raise the front tire pressure?
  • Options
    antriebantrieb Registered Users Posts: 285 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2007
    No, and I can't find it anywhere on youtube. What did they think?

    Oddly enough I liked the 2001 M5 less than I like my bros 1998 540iA.

    I'm guessing they didn't have good things to say considering how slow their lap time was. And I'll agree, as far as pure speed sure it wasn't my favorite, but as a total package with practicality and comfort included in consideration, I liked it. The seats rivalved my 380SE's (the new ones, not the old beat up ones that were in it until a month ago) in comfort (maybe even, gasp, more comfortable for long drives). And when the suspension was set to advanced mode it felt really nice.

    Found it. They seemed to like it and hate it and said to get an S4. Well, S4 is one we didn't test drive (there were none in the area in his price range, there are plenty in his price range, just not in this area at the moment), but one thing I always wonder when I see complaints about understeer is, why not just raise the front tire pressure?
    335i?
    Photography runs in my blood :andy

    http://zwilliams.smugmug.com/
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2007
    antrieb wrote:
    335i?

    It's complicated, but he can't do it (basically, the new wife has some input, he'll be in Colorado, if it won't be good in the snow it has to be 30k or less - she doesn't strike me as a car girl from what I've heard, so it doesn't seem to sink in that a 335i with snows on it will be fine). Personally, I think either the Volvo or the S4 (I just found one at the local Carmax in his price range, so he could test drive that without guilt) are the best bets. He doesn't really like the new line of BMWs either, except the 335.

    I really can't believe how much I prefer my bros 1998 540 to that 2001 M5 we drove. I've gotten to where I don't count what's on paper for anything anymore, all that matters is actually driving it. 300C SRT8 looks like a great car in every department on paper. It's not that much faster than my bros 540 in actual driving and it handles like a pig.
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2007
    Test drove the S4. That is in my mind a winner. Just an absolutely great car. He still likes the CL, but I think he's coming around to how bad they are to maintain.
  • Options
    cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited April 1, 2007
    Test drove the S4. That is in my mind a winner. Just an absolutely great car. He still likes the CL, but I think he's coming around to how bad they are to maintain.

    Are we talking one of the 2.7 twin turbo S4s or one of the new V8 S4s???

    The 2.7T S4 is going to be very, very hard to beat for a Colorado car. Maintenince is going to be expensive, but no worse than any of the other cars you were talking about.
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2007
    cletus wrote:
    Are we talking one of the 2.7 twin turbo S4s or one of the new V8 S4s???

    The 2.7T S4 is going to be very, very hard to beat for a Colorado car. Maintenince is going to be expensive, but no worse than any of the other cars you were talking about.


    No, we're talking about the 4.2 liter V8. I've driven the 2.7T one before, didn't like it at all. I get the feeling maintenance on the 4.2 is better too, and that's part of the thing. The CL was really his favorite, but the maintenance on those has just taken them off the list.
  • Options
    ivarivar Registered Users Posts: 8,395 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2007
    No, we're talking about the 4.2 liter V8. I've driven the 2.7T one before, didn't like it at all. I get the feeling maintenance on the 4.2 is better too, and that's part of the thing. The CL was really his favorite, but the maintenance on those has just taken them off the list.
    it's so funny seeing you guys talk about 2.8 and 4.2 liter and V8 engines.... I know someone who has a 2.0liter 4 cylinder here, the biggest I know of lol3.gif There are probably bigger engines around though, i think....
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2007
    ivar wrote:
    it's so funny seeing you guys talk about 2.8 and 4.2 liter and V8 engines.... I know someone who has a 2.0liter 4 cylinder here, the biggest I know of lol3.gif There are probably bigger engines around though, i think....

    We Americans are like Germans when it comes to cars, only with bad driving, cheap gas, and an odd desire for large vehicles. I.e....Americans like horsepower.
  • Options
    cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2007
    No, we're talking about the 4.2 liter V8. I've driven the 2.7T one before, didn't like it at all. I get the feeling maintenance on the 4.2 is better too, and that's part of the thing....

    I don't know about that. The 2.7T was/is a pretty bullet proof power plant. With any Audi the main thing thats going to kill you are the electrical issues. My father has a '01 A6 2.7T that has had an unusual number of issues, but none of them were engine related.

    The 2.7T driveline is over built for the stock 250 hp. As long as you take care of it (regular oil changes, let the turbos cool down after flogging it, etc...) it should be dead reliable at 300+ hp with nothing more than a new ecu.

    You might contact the guys at APR and tell them what your buddy is looking for (be sure to tell them the car is going to live in Colorado). It might be interesting to hear what they have to say.
  • Options
    marlinspikemarlinspike Registered Users Posts: 2,095 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2007
    cletus wrote:
    I don't know about that. The 2.7T was/is a pretty bullet proof power plant. With any Audi the main thing thats going to kill you are the electrical issues. My father has a '01 A6 2.7T that has had an unusual number of issues, but none of them were engine related.

    The 2.7T driveline is over built for the stock 250 hp. As long as you take care of it (regular oil changes, let the turbos cool down after flogging it, etc...) it should be dead reliable at 300+ hp with nothing more than a new ecu.

    You might contact the guys at APR and tell them what your buddy is looking for (be sure to tell them the car is going to live in Colorado). It might be interesting to hear what they have to say.

    Well, the stuff I've heard about the 2.7T is that the seals in the turbos like to leak.

    He's leaning back to the pre-facelift 996's again. Basically, I know that's what he really wants, but he's worried about making a 1 hour each way commute to work 5 days a week in one.
  • Options
    cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited April 2, 2007
    Well, the stuff I've heard about the 2.7T is that the seals in the turbos like to leak.

    ne_nau.gif It's been a while since I was keeping up on the latest and greatest Audi news. My wife used to be the warranty clerk at the local Audi dealer. They never sold many 2.7Ts but before she left ('03 or '04) they had not had any turbo related issues with them. They had a handful of issues with the turbos on 1.8Ts but I think all of those got traced back to people not taking care of them or problems that started elsewhere but wound up causing turbo issues.
    He's leaning back to the pre-facelift 996's again. Basically, I know that's what he really wants, but he's worried about making a 1 hour each way commute to work 5 days a week in one.

    What's he worried about, the millage he'll be putting on it or just being in it 10 hours a week?
Sign In or Register to comment.