We all know the average user like you is more important.
Hmm... outsourcing their printing to EZPrints means Smugmug makes only pennies on each non-pro print. But with pros they make their normal fee plus a commission. And then there's the annual fee. I would think pros are very important to sm's bottom line. Whether pros or non-pros are more important... I'll stop short of guessing which.
Until you start earning money with your photos, you won't understand how important coupons and packages is to a pro.
Agreed.
I would pay $300/yr without blinking if it meant I had coupons and packages vs. not having them at $150/yr.
Err, speak for yourself! SM is already a 50% premium over say, shutterfly's pro service, but I do believe it's worth it. For $300 a year sm would have to offer even more pro services and products, and compete with the likes of Miller's. And then I think it would be hard to justify for part-timers such as myself.
I know for a fact that I lost hundreds of dollars this spring alone by not offering coupons.
All's I'm saying - Give Andy and the rest of the SM staff a break. They've more than outdone what most would think capable from such a small staff.
As a software engineer myself, in my opinion this project is overdue even for a small development team, and I have never heard of a software project with no deadline or goal rollout date.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
One other thing (that it doesn't take a pro to understand) - Fixed dates/deadlines only lead to one of two things:
1. Broken promises due to a missed date.
2. Imperfect results due to rushing to meet a date.
I hate deadlines. You work on something until its done and perfect. I know most of you Pros would rather see a fantastic coupon feature in a few months, as opposed to coupons now, but with none of the concerns and suggestions you've provided over the past year.
One other thing (that it doesn't take a pro to understand) - Fixed dates/deadlines only lead to one of two things:
1. Broken promises due to a missed date.
2. Imperfect results due to rushing to meet a date.
And yet most of the world operates on the concept of deadlines. My day job is with AMD. Every single project, whether they be external projects like microprocessors, or internal projects such as software tools or methodologies, is planned to a deadline. Sometimes you meet the deadline, sometimes you don't. But there is still a schedule BECAUSE ITS THE ONLY WAY FOR PEOPLE TO PLAN AND MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THE FUTURE.
What I think has made a lot of people upset here is that they have been completely unable to plan for their future. Do they stay with Smugmug because the feature they need is going to come soon? Or do they uproot everything and go somewhere like Exposure Manager, who has had all these features and many more for at least 4 years now?
One other thing (that it doesn't take a pro to understand) - Fixed dates/deadlines only lead to one of two things:
1. Broken promises due to a missed date.
2. Imperfect results due to rushing to meet a date.
I hate deadlines. You work on something until its done and perfect. I know most of you Pros would rather see a fantastic coupon feature in a few months, as opposed to coupons now, but with none of the concerns and suggestions you've provided over the past year.
You sound like an independently wealthy artist. No, that is not how software development works. You set time-lines and goals, deliver functionality in stages, and add enhancements over time. Guess what, Google started as just a search engine. SM could have had a bare bones coupon in place by now.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
But was the EZ customizer that necessary of a business tool, compared to a sales and marketing feature like coupons and packages?
This has become a fairly common argument. Of course Coupons and Packages are more important than the EZ customizer. But you are assuming both that engineering resources were directed to it instead of Coupons/Packages and that all three projects take a similar amount of time. Both assumptions are wrong.
We hired a new sorcerer early this year and one of his first projects was to do the customizer. Coupons and Packages were being worked on already by other engineers and throwing him in to help would not have improved the situation.
Our engineering resources are generally allocated in a relatively simple manner. We rank the importance of the features, what kind of programming is involved, and how much time it will take. Coupons and Packages are right at the top of the list, but to do them right it does take a lot of time and effort.
I don't think you would find many of your pro customers that would say so. I don't know how many pro customers SM has, but i'd venture it in the thousands. And at $150 a year each, that's a chunk of change that should be spent supporting what pros need to do business.
All of our customers are valuable to us because we aren't just focused on making money. That being said, I believe we have more features than any other photo sharing site and have consistently showed a real effort in producing Pro-oriented features like Bay Photo integration and SmugVault.
Coupons and Packages will come. And they will be very well done.
When you pay for more "features" for your brick & mortar gallery, you pay more rent. At SmugMug, the rent doesn't seem to be going up - but Pros keep asking for more and more features.
While I'd like some things to be added, such as custom URLs, etc., they're not a primary priority. I want two features: coupons and packages, which were requested years ago. And I specifically said I'd pay extra for them. SmugMug is a great company, and I certainly don't want to leave. However, you really have to understand that the pros generate many times more revenue than the consumers. Are there way more standard subscribers? Sure. But the pros are the ones paying 15% of their sales and bringing in thousands of dollars of print sales a year.
Also, the fact is, as I said, consumers are less demanding about their consumer product. They don't pay much for it, and it's not critical to their well being.
First off - what is it about IT professionals and photography? There are certainly a lot of us involved in photography. Must be the combination of technology and art that draws the same type of person to both.
Anyway. Just wanted to add a voice regarding deadlines and such. Of COURSE most of the business world works on deadlines. Without them, nothing would ever get completed. And, as Bill stated so well, no one could plan for the future.
To that end, I'm sure Smugmug's project team for this enhancement has deadlines. Assuming they don't is foolish.
It's simply their policy not to communicate those deadlines with their business partners. That's a philosophy shared by a lot of companies that produce products - Canon isn't going to give you a timeframe on their next DSLR or when they're going to release a 24-70 2.8 lens upgrade. Often software vendors do not give you a firm timetable on a software upgrade.
Fundamentally, the problem I have with this is Smugmug isn't a software vendor, they're a business partner. That's a bit of a different arrangement. Normally there's a bit more knowledge sharing between business partners in the IT world. BUT, that's usually because there's a financial interest for that knowledge sharing. With it's current policy of not talking dates, Smugmug protects itself from the bad press of not missing a date and justifying the miss to thousands of 'partners'. It also keeps people on the hook "...well I'll sign up for another year - I'm not happy but I'm sure they'll have this in the next month or so". The risk is they'll lose clients. The only way they would change th business practice is if the financial impact were strong enough. Just look in this thread - how many people have threatened to leave. But how many actually have? There are only a couple of games in town - others have been mentioned in this thread. Some have coupons but Smugmug is better in other areas (cusomization, support, etc). Like it or not (and I'm one of the people that doesn't like it), there's no compelling reason for Smugmug to change their practice of not sharing delivery dates. Their just isn't enough clout in their business partners (us) to make them do it. Yes it's aggravating. And yes, it's probably not something that should have taken them this long to finish. But it is what it is. As long as threats to leave are just idle threats and not people leaving in the 1000s we're stuck with it.
I know most of you Pros would rather see a fantastic coupon feature in a few months, as opposed to coupons now, but with none of the concerns and suggestions you've provided over the past year.
Nope. I would have preferred a bare bones system last fall/winter with incremental improvements over a year or two versus waiting over a year since this thread was started and still having nothing.
Flexibility is great, but something beats nothing almost every time.
how many people have threatened to leave. But how many actually have?
I'm one who could no longer work on "coming soon" deadlines. The last thing I wanted to do was spend days moving all my galleries and learning the interface of a new system but I could finally wait no longer.
I kind of always planned on coming back when they got things worked out but now I am quite liking the new site and especially the SEO. It is so nice to shoot an event, upload photos and have my site on page one of Google a day later even appearing in image searches. I can't believe how many hits I get from web searches that I was missing before.
I'll certainly give Smug a chance when they get the Pro site running as I'm paid up until March. I'm guessing they should have it implemented by then but I'm not sure what there definition of " soon" is.
Nope. I would have preferred a bare bones system last fall/winter with incremental improvements over a year or two versus waiting over a year since this thread was started and still having nothing.
You don't work, do you? Everything has a deadline, and nothing commercially sold is ever "perfect".
We would still be waiting for Windows 1.0 if Bill Gates subscribed to your philosophy.
Nope. I would have preferred a bare bones system last fall/winter with incremental improvements over a year or two versus waiting over a year since this thread was started and still having nothing.
Flexibility is great, but something beats nothing almost every time.
I'm employed, very much so. I spend half of every day working on projects. Rarely do we meet deadlines, and if we do it's because we were forced to decrease our scope in order to meet said deadline. Our management (our customer) demands 100%, until they realize that 100% takes 2x longer than 80%. But then we give them 80% and they complain about it until we get to 100%.
Which is exactly why I threw my 2 cents in to this thread. I feel sorry for that guys at SM who've been dealing with nothing but complaints over the past year. If you were OK with bare bones, you should've said something at the very beginning, but everyone kept adding to the list of "needs". Now they definitely won't release anything until it's absolutely perfect, for fear of series backlash.
And by the way - thanks to those of you for the kind insults. I'm not an unemployed, wealthy artist. I'm a gainfully employed father of 2.
I think you all just need to chill out. If coupons were such a big deal, you would've left by now.
I'm employed, very much so. I spend half of every day working on projects. Rarely do we meet deadlines, and if we do it's because we were forced to decrease our scope in order to meet said deadline. Our management (our customer) demands 100%, until they realize that 100% takes 2x longer than 80%. But then we give them 80% and they complain about it until we get to 100%.
But you DO have schedules and deadlines.
If coupons were such a big deal, you would've left by now.
We agree there. Back around 2006 I left for Exposure Manager because SM didn't support my needs. And if I still had those same needs I'd be back at EM now.
I think you all just need to chill out. If coupons were such a big deal, you would've left by now.
First off, I have two and a half years left on my SM membership, so I'd be paying for two services. Even so, if there are no coupons by my busy season this fall, I will be publishing my proof galleries to EM and paying month to month.
The reason why people are complaining is since SmugMug is such a responsive company. "Complaints" are the way to show them what's important to us. I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes these complaints are too harsh or too personal towards SmugMug employees. Nevertheless, the fact that I can complain and SmugMug will respond and prioritize based on requests is great. Every company gets complaints, and lots of them. The great thing about SM is that they actually listen to them and even welcome them.
I think you all just need to chill out. If coupons were such a big deal, you would've left by now.
excuse me, why is this your problem? why are you posting or even reading in here? kindly mind your own business and leave the pro discussions to the pros.
-Jack
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
excuse me, why is this your problem? why are you posting or even reading in here? kindly mind your own business and leave the pro discussions to the pros.
I'm employed, very much so. I spend half of every day working on projects. Rarely do we meet deadlines, and if we do it's because we were forced to decrease our scope in order to meet said deadline. Our management (our customer) demands 100%, until they realize that 100% takes 2x longer than 80%. But then we give them 80% and they complain about it until we get to 100%.
Sounds like every job I've ever had, better than some in fact.
If you didn't have a deadline do you honestly think you would be at 80% when the customer expected 100%? Unlikely.
The big issue (as I see it) is that SM flat out refuses to discuss schedules.
What would your (paying) customers say if you refused to provide any kind of schedule/timeline for a project? Exactly.
Coupons have already been officially pushed back once because of Bay Photo integration, without a schedule who knows how many other things have or will take precedence... (yes Andy, I know they are "very important" and in "active and aggressive development").
First off, I have two and a half years left on my SM membership, so I'd be paying for two services. Even so, if there are no coupons by my busy season this fall, I will be publishing my proof galleries to EM and paying month to month.
The reason why people are complaining is since SmugMug is such a responsive company. "Complaints" are the way to show them what's important to us. I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes these complaints are too harsh or too personal towards SmugMug employees. Nevertheless, the fact that I can complain and SmugMug will respond and prioritize based on requests is great. Every company gets complaints, and lots of them. The great thing about SM is that they actually listen to them and even welcome them.
Agreed. Smugmug is more responsive than most companies in most fields. I *really* need coupons, but the trade-off's are too high to switch out. I like a company that listens, a site that looks great, and reasonable prices.
I'm working around the coupons for now by having the customer order through me. I turn off printing until we work it out (I primarily do portraits, weddings, etc). By "work it out," I mean that we meet together, and I help them select their photos. It's not a perfect solution, or even a good solution, but it buys me time until Smugmug gets it done.
I too do project management, and deadlines are a hard thing to meet. One of the reasons Smugmug doesn't pre-announce their release dates is the importance of quality control. So many of their new features are really clean ( or at least within 24 hours of release!). That doesn't come easily.
I do think that there's been enough heat that they won't back off until coupons are released. It's been written, "Hope deferred makes the heart sick;" I suspect that's what we're seeing. Announced date or not, people generally make an internal date of what they think a feature will take to develop. When it's pushed beyond that "deadline," it's a disappointment, fair or not.
Andy et al, we are looking forward to the coupons. Please continue flogging the appropriate wizards until delivery!! Boy, do we need coupons!
Can we get an estimated time of this being a reality? I need to update my price list, but its going to be very different once these coupons come into play. Thanks
Can we get an estimated time of this being a reality? I need to update my price list, but its going to be very different once these coupons come into play. Thanks
Coupons are being developed right now, nearing the end (I hope!) - we're actually pre-testing them internally - as of yesterday - the first of A LOT of testing. We don't give release dates, but they're getting closer!
I keep checking back here to see the status of this issue. Of course, it's not going to do me any good this football season, as I've already switched vendors because of the lack of features in this area. However, I had to renew my SM acct because I have 5 years of images hosted there that would be too much of a pain to reload to the new vendor.
I really hope that the SM solution, if and when it arrives, is a viable alternative to Exposure Manager's coupon and voucher systems. EM isn't as sexy, but as a sales tool, the functionality is there.
I hope to be back, but for now, I won't be loading any more photos for sale at SM until they resolve this satisfactorily.
I think all of us working pros that were loyal to SM over the years will be owed an apology when this finally comes out. The length of time it has taken really is inexcusable. And to deny that they've fallen down on this issue is just plain delusional. Look, when you are losing customers because you can't offer what your competitors do, you've fallen down. You may be working to get back up, albeit very slowly, but man, you have fallen down. Now man up, admit it, and make nice with all the people you've pissed off by ignoring them for years.
A lot of us want to come back, but we need to be shown some love!
Can we get an estimated time of this being a reality? I need to update my price list, but its going to be very different once these coupons come into play. Thanks
Well, it's my birthday today. And all I wanted was coupons and packages from SmugMug. :cry
Well that's not all I wanted. Some sweet location lighting gear too, which I got. Didn't have my hopes up anyway on getting the coupons this early. Still, any chance I could be a beta tester or something?
Comments
Hmm... outsourcing their printing to EZPrints means Smugmug makes only pennies on each non-pro print. But with pros they make their normal fee plus a commission. And then there's the annual fee. I would think pros are very important to sm's bottom line. Whether pros or non-pros are more important... I'll stop short of guessing which.
Agreed.
Err, speak for yourself! SM is already a 50% premium over say, shutterfly's pro service, but I do believe it's worth it. For $300 a year sm would have to offer even more pro services and products, and compete with the likes of Miller's. And then I think it would be hard to justify for part-timers such as myself.
Same here.
As a software engineer myself, in my opinion this project is overdue even for a small development team, and I have never heard of a software project with no deadline or goal rollout date.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
1. Broken promises due to a missed date.
2. Imperfect results due to rushing to meet a date.
I hate deadlines. You work on something until its done and perfect. I know most of you Pros would rather see a fantastic coupon feature in a few months, as opposed to coupons now, but with none of the concerns and suggestions you've provided over the past year.
What I think has made a lot of people upset here is that they have been completely unable to plan for their future. Do they stay with Smugmug because the feature they need is going to come soon? Or do they uproot everything and go somewhere like Exposure Manager, who has had all these features and many more for at least 4 years now?
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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You sound like an independently wealthy artist. No, that is not how software development works. You set time-lines and goals, deliver functionality in stages, and add enhancements over time. Guess what, Google started as just a search engine. SM could have had a bare bones coupon in place by now.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
We hired a new sorcerer early this year and one of his first projects was to do the customizer. Coupons and Packages were being worked on already by other engineers and throwing him in to help would not have improved the situation.
Our engineering resources are generally allocated in a relatively simple manner. We rank the importance of the features, what kind of programming is involved, and how much time it will take. Coupons and Packages are right at the top of the list, but to do them right it does take a lot of time and effort.
All of our customers are valuable to us because we aren't just focused on making money. That being said, I believe we have more features than any other photo sharing site and have consistently showed a real effort in producing Pro-oriented features like Bay Photo integration and SmugVault.
Coupons and Packages will come. And they will be very well done.
While I'd like some things to be added, such as custom URLs, etc., they're not a primary priority. I want two features: coupons and packages, which were requested years ago. And I specifically said I'd pay extra for them. SmugMug is a great company, and I certainly don't want to leave. However, you really have to understand that the pros generate many times more revenue than the consumers. Are there way more standard subscribers? Sure. But the pros are the ones paying 15% of their sales and bringing in thousands of dollars of print sales a year.
Also, the fact is, as I said, consumers are less demanding about their consumer product. They don't pay much for it, and it's not critical to their well being.
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Anyway. Just wanted to add a voice regarding deadlines and such. Of COURSE most of the business world works on deadlines. Without them, nothing would ever get completed. And, as Bill stated so well, no one could plan for the future.
To that end, I'm sure Smugmug's project team for this enhancement has deadlines. Assuming they don't is foolish.
It's simply their policy not to communicate those deadlines with their business partners. That's a philosophy shared by a lot of companies that produce products - Canon isn't going to give you a timeframe on their next DSLR or when they're going to release a 24-70 2.8 lens upgrade. Often software vendors do not give you a firm timetable on a software upgrade.
Fundamentally, the problem I have with this is Smugmug isn't a software vendor, they're a business partner. That's a bit of a different arrangement. Normally there's a bit more knowledge sharing between business partners in the IT world. BUT, that's usually because there's a financial interest for that knowledge sharing. With it's current policy of not talking dates, Smugmug protects itself from the bad press of not missing a date and justifying the miss to thousands of 'partners'. It also keeps people on the hook "...well I'll sign up for another year - I'm not happy but I'm sure they'll have this in the next month or so". The risk is they'll lose clients. The only way they would change th business practice is if the financial impact were strong enough. Just look in this thread - how many people have threatened to leave. But how many actually have? There are only a couple of games in town - others have been mentioned in this thread. Some have coupons but Smugmug is better in other areas (cusomization, support, etc). Like it or not (and I'm one of the people that doesn't like it), there's no compelling reason for Smugmug to change their practice of not sharing delivery dates. Their just isn't enough clout in their business partners (us) to make them do it. Yes it's aggravating. And yes, it's probably not something that should have taken them this long to finish. But it is what it is. As long as threats to leave are just idle threats and not people leaving in the 1000s we're stuck with it.
You don't work, do you? Everything has a deadline, and nothing commercially sold is ever "perfect".
We would still be waiting for Windows 1.0 if Bill Gates subscribed to your philosophy.
Nope. I would have preferred a bare bones system last fall/winter with incremental improvements over a year or two versus waiting over a year since this thread was started and still having nothing.
Flexibility is great, but something beats nothing almost every time.
I kind of always planned on coming back when they got things worked out but now I am quite liking the new site and especially the SEO. It is so nice to shoot an event, upload photos and have my site on page one of Google a day later even appearing in image searches. I can't believe how many hits I get from web searches that I was missing before.
I'll certainly give Smug a chance when they get the Pro site running as I'm paid up until March. I'm guessing they should have it implemented by then but I'm not sure what there definition of " soon" is.
DMunsonPhoto
MaxPreps Profile
Sports Shooter
Agree 100%.
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I'm employed, very much so. I spend half of every day working on projects. Rarely do we meet deadlines, and if we do it's because we were forced to decrease our scope in order to meet said deadline. Our management (our customer) demands 100%, until they realize that 100% takes 2x longer than 80%. But then we give them 80% and they complain about it until we get to 100%.
Which is exactly why I threw my 2 cents in to this thread. I feel sorry for that guys at SM who've been dealing with nothing but complaints over the past year. If you were OK with bare bones, you should've said something at the very beginning, but everyone kept adding to the list of "needs". Now they definitely won't release anything until it's absolutely perfect, for fear of series backlash.
And by the way - thanks to those of you for the kind insults. I'm not an unemployed, wealthy artist. I'm a gainfully employed father of 2.
I think you all just need to chill out. If coupons were such a big deal, you would've left by now.
We agree there. Back around 2006 I left for Exposure Manager because SM didn't support my needs. And if I still had those same needs I'd be back at EM now.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
My Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/mercphoto?ref=hdr_shop_menu
First off, I have two and a half years left on my SM membership, so I'd be paying for two services. Even so, if there are no coupons by my busy season this fall, I will be publishing my proof galleries to EM and paying month to month.
The reason why people are complaining is since SmugMug is such a responsive company. "Complaints" are the way to show them what's important to us. I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes these complaints are too harsh or too personal towards SmugMug employees. Nevertheless, the fact that I can complain and SmugMug will respond and prioritize based on requests is great. Every company gets complaints, and lots of them. The great thing about SM is that they actually listen to them and even welcome them.
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excuse me, why is this your problem? why are you posting or even reading in here? kindly mind your own business and leave the pro discussions to the pros.
An "accurate" reproduction of a scene and a good photograph are often two different things.
Wow.
lol
Sounds like every job I've ever had, better than some in fact.
If you didn't have a deadline do you honestly think you would be at 80% when the customer expected 100%? Unlikely.
The big issue (as I see it) is that SM flat out refuses to discuss schedules.
What would your (paying) customers say if you refused to provide any kind of schedule/timeline for a project? Exactly.
Coupons have already been officially pushed back once because of Bay Photo integration, without a schedule who knows how many other things have or will take precedence... (yes Andy, I know they are "very important" and in "active and aggressive development").
No, there are other factors that (for now) outweigh that one feature. But not too much longer.
I'm generally happy, tall, and fuzzy on the inside.www.NickensPhotography.com
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Agreed. Smugmug is more responsive than most companies in most fields. I *really* need coupons, but the trade-off's are too high to switch out. I like a company that listens, a site that looks great, and reasonable prices.
I'm working around the coupons for now by having the customer order through me. I turn off printing until we work it out (I primarily do portraits, weddings, etc). By "work it out," I mean that we meet together, and I help them select their photos. It's not a perfect solution, or even a good solution, but it buys me time until Smugmug gets it done.
I too do project management, and deadlines are a hard thing to meet. One of the reasons Smugmug doesn't pre-announce their release dates is the importance of quality control. So many of their new features are really clean ( or at least within 24 hours of release!). That doesn't come easily.
I do think that there's been enough heat that they won't back off until coupons are released. It's been written, "Hope deferred makes the heart sick;" I suspect that's what we're seeing. Announced date or not, people generally make an internal date of what they think a feature will take to develop. When it's pushed beyond that "deadline," it's a disappointment, fair or not.
Andy et al, we are looking forward to the coupons. Please continue flogging the appropriate wizards until delivery!!
www.RichardBerryPhotography.com
No, it was a question, although a rhetorical one. "Why would we do that...?"
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Seriously, we're gaining on it - we've got internal testing and bug fixing to do, but it's closer!
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Getting excited. Just remember my offer. If you ever need any users to test it, just let me know!
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www.jimmyhickeyblog.net
:thumb
You haven't read the thread... or even the last few pages... have you?
Coupons are being developed right now, nearing the end (I hope!) - we're actually pre-testing them internally - as of yesterday - the first of A LOT of testing. We don't give release dates, but they're getting closer!
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I really hope that the SM solution, if and when it arrives, is a viable alternative to Exposure Manager's coupon and voucher systems. EM isn't as sexy, but as a sales tool, the functionality is there.
I hope to be back, but for now, I won't be loading any more photos for sale at SM until they resolve this satisfactorily.
I think all of us working pros that were loyal to SM over the years will be owed an apology when this finally comes out. The length of time it has taken really is inexcusable. And to deny that they've fallen down on this issue is just plain delusional. Look, when you are losing customers because you can't offer what your competitors do, you've fallen down. You may be working to get back up, albeit very slowly, but man, you have fallen down. Now man up, admit it, and make nice with all the people you've pissed off by ignoring them for years.
A lot of us want to come back, but we need to be shown some love!
Well that's not all I wanted. Some sweet location lighting gear too, which I got. Didn't have my hopes up anyway on getting the coupons this early. Still, any chance I could be a beta tester or something?
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