great to hear from you any chance of meeting up with you and maybe going along with us for a day, a few days or the whole thing? the official shoot out or the post safari? we could learn from each other.
great to hear from you any chance of meeting up with you and maybe going along with us for a day, a few days or the whole thing? the official shoot out or the post safari? we could learn from each other.
The more the merrier, and we can defineitely use your knowledge and guidance:-). Think of it, at least!
Lens renting: wanna split/share?
Since the moment I got my 20D last August, and especially since we decided to visit slot canyons and such in the post-shootout, I was planning to get EF 24mm f3.5L TILT/SHIFT lens for this trip. However, after getting further involved in all dslr game of interchangeable glass I realized that this lens is such a specialty item, that even if I get it, I would probably use it only for this trip and after that it will be simply taking space on my shelf or in my backpack.
So I'm currently considering simply renting it for the trip. If I fall in love with it - I can always buy it later, but at least I'd have solid two weeks of the hands-on experience.
This place (http://www.lensrepro.com/RENTAL/canon.html) has it at $75 per week ($25 per day), so renting it for two weeks would be $150 + some s/h.
And then I thought: since there will be 6 of us on this post-trip, may be we can split/share? Since we'll be pretty much all together in all those places, each of us will have a honestly paid chance to try it out and play with it. And at $25.. $40 per share it would be almost nothing.
Canon 1D Mk II N - Canon 5D - Canon EF 17-40 f/4L USM - Canon EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM - Canon EF 85 f/1.8 USM - Canon EF 100 f/2.8 macro - Canon EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS USM
Since the moment I got my 20D last August, and especially since we decided to visit slot canyons and such in the post-shootout, I was planning to get EF 24mm f3.5L TILT/SHIFT lens for this trip. However, after getting further involved in all dslr game of interchangeable glass I realized that this lens is such a specialty item, that even if I get it, I would probably use it only for this trip and after that it will be simply taking space on my shelf or in my backpack.
So I'm currently considering simply renting it for the trip. If I fall in love with it - I can always buy it later, but at least I'd have solid two weeks of the hands-on experience.
This place (http://www.lensrepro.com/RENTAL/canon.html) has it at $75 per week ($25 per day), so renting it for two weeks would be $150 + some s/h.
And then I thought: since there will be 6 of us on this post-trip, may be we can split/share? Since we'll be pretty much all together in all those places, each of us will have a honestly paid chance to try it out and play with it. And at $25.. $40 per share it would be almost nothing.
Anybody wants in?
Nik, that sounds good on the surface and I'm thinking YES, but (not to be naysayer) how do we know how we'll be paired for the actualy Shootout since we may be in separate groups. And everybody would have to play nice to share it for those limited photo-ops. Can WE actually do that!?
Canon 1D Mk II N - Canon 5D - Canon EF 17-40 f/4L USM - Canon EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM - Canon EF 85 f/1.8 USM - Canon EF 100 f/2.8 macro - Canon EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS USM
Nik, that sounds good on the surface and I'm thinking YES, but (not to be naysayer) how do we know how we'll be paired for the actualy Shootout since we may be in separate groups. And everybody would have to play nice to share it for those limited photo-ops. Can WE actually do that!?
Jack
We'll try to arrange with official shotout that all of us who'd share this lens would be in the same group. And on the post-shootout (for which I think this lens will be the most precious addition) we ARE the one group, since we will all be in one RV and in one tour.
So I don't see any real problems with sharing.
Cheers!
Nightingale and I, and Rutt, plan on hanging around after the shootout at Bryce and Zion for the following week or so also. Rutt does need to be near a major airport at some point, which has not been precisely defined yet. We will be driving from the east to the shootout, and do not plan to make the getogether in Las Vegas before the shootout as it would involve 300 more miles west and then back east for us. Instead we are going to meander down Highway 12 in Utah on the way to Bryce.
We would enjoy hanging around with your group after the shootout if that is welcome. We prefer to stay in a motel since we already have a vehicle, so I would like to know your route plans to set up accomodations in advance if possible.
I will be driving a Honda Ridgeline with three passengers and gear, but could carry another if their gear is in waterproof bags or could be left in the RV during the day. It is four wheel drive and I want to explore some of the back routes if possible, where the RV may not be as usefull.
Kathy and I shot out of Page Arizona a year ago at one of Alan Briot's workshops so I know a tiny bit about the area. I would love to shoot sunrise at Horseshoe Bend again.
And Antelope Canyon also. The time of day is critical for shooting Antelope Canyon as the sun NEEDS to be very high in the sky. It is also very sandy and dusty. Not a place to be changing lenses - Plan what lens you want to use in advance. I used the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 Di and was satisfied. A 17-40 or a 24-20 would also work. I suspect a 24-70 would be ideal. But do not plan on changing lenses in the Canyon.
I hope to meander easterly so that I am near the western Colorado- New Mexico border by Thursday the following week, to allow me ample time for the drive back to Indiana which is a hard two days drive from there.
I want to shoot Monument Valley for two sunrises if possible also. And I definitely want to return to El Morro Nat Monument in New Mexico in the late afternoon if possible.
I am hoping that we can share at least some of your post shoot endeavors Nick. Let me know if any of this will coordinate with your plans.
Nightingale and I, and Rutt, plan on hanging around after the shootout at Bryce and Zion for the following week or so also. Rutt does need to be near a major air port at some point, which has not been precisely defined yet. We will be driving from the east to the shootout, and do not plan to make the getogether in Las Vegas before the shootout as it would involve 300 more miles west and then back east for us. Instead we are going to meander down Highway 12 in Utah on the way to Bryce.
We would enjoy hanging around with your group after the shootout if that is welcome. We prefer to stay in a motel since we already have a vehicle, so I would like to know your route plans to set up accomodations in advance if possible.
I know this thread is rather large, but I'd recommend to read it through, at least starting from that post.
If you wanna do Antelope with us, you may need to check with Kudbegud asap, since he made original reservation. Thus far we reserved six spots in this special photo-tour, and the max number is twelve, if I'm not mistaken..
All spots in our RV are taken, and we did not specifically plan to have motels around our camping points. However it should be possible to park a car next to RV (if you want to set a camp, for instance).
Thanks for the advices! I'm looking forward to talk more about it, and, most of all, to see you joining us on what's gotta be a great one-week trip!
if you want to go to Antelope with us, call 866-645-9102, the one we made the 6 reservations with. you can tell them you are with the Smugmug group and want to be added to the list. our reservation # is ACT00408 so you can refferance us exactly if needed. set up for monday may 22nd, the 2 hour photographers tour, 11am - 2pm.
and horseshoe bend is deffinatly on the list...thanks for the sunrise tip.
if you want to go to Antelope with us, call 866-645-9102, the one we made the 6 reservations with. you can tell them you are with the Smugmug group and want to be added to the list. our reservation # is ACT00408 so you can refferance us exactly if needed. set up for monday may 22nd, the 2 hour photographers tour, 11am - 2pm.
and horseshoe bend is deffinatly on the list...thanks for the sunrise tip.
Path, Rutt: what he said:-)
BTW, guys, if you decide to join all all the way, it would be nice if you could pick up some "area guide" assignments (see a few posts above). Thanks!
Thanks guys. I have stayed in Page before at the Marriott Courtyard and if they have room will stay there again. They had great WiFi and great food. Horseshoe Bend and Antelope Canyon are both within 15-20 minutes by car.
Your route map on the link you listed was a great help.
I will try for reservations for the Antelope shoot in the morning.
I will begin looking for reservations in the Desert Rose Inn in Bluff Utah also. Gettting a room in Moab should not be difficult at that time of year unless there is an event occurring I think.
As for things to research, let me read about Moki Dugway and the areas around Monument Valley. I like backroads and 4WD trails - easy ones anyway.
I would also suggest not missing Dead Horse State Park when you are in Moab - it easily rivals the Federal Parks around there.
Here is a pano shot with a 10D from 2004 at Dead Horse State Park I threw together
Michiel, Skippy, Nightingale, Rutt - wann join the crowd on some homework? I'll waiting on you to pick the leftovers...
I'll see what I can do.... A new GF, a helluva project in the office and working with a band and finding myself a house has been eating away my time disastrously! (don't even know if that's english or not ) I'll see what I can do though! Maybe I'll pick up a book on the area and inform you of all the goodies inside
I'll see what I can do.... A new GF, a helluva project in the office and working with a band and finding myself a house has been eating away my time disastrously! (don't even know if that's english or not ) I'll see what I can do though! Maybe I'll pick up a book on the area and inform you of all the goodies inside
Cheers mates!
Good to hear from you!
Just let us know what the book's title, so we know what area is yours:-)
PS
Don't forget to bring the CDs/mp3s of that band with you.. We will have a long time on the road, so we need a lot of music...:):
here's the books i have already:
Moon Handbooks, zion & bryce
Photographers Guide to the Grand Canyon & Northern Arizona
Vol 1, Photographing the Southwest
Rand McNally Road Map, Utah
here's the books i have already:
Moon Handbooks, zion & bryce
Photographers Guide to the Grand Canyon & Northern Arizona
Vol 1, Photographing the Southwest
Rand McNally Road Map, Utah
Also, little birdie told me that Path, Nightingale and Rutt are locked in for the Antelope tour and some other major points! That makes us officially nine!
Man, what a great trip this gonna be!
National Park Pass
time is actually getting close, so......
we should start to get the annual pass for National Parks, link below: http://www.nationalparks.org/Home.asp
i just purchased one, and reading the FAQ's, we might be allowed in as a group in a car or RV. please read and see what you think.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=contenttitle vAlign=top align=right>Q.</TD><TD class=contenttitle vAlign=top align=left>Does this get everyone in my vehicle into the park?</TD></TR><TR><TD class=content vAlign=top align=right>A.</TD><TD class=content vAlign=top align=left>Yes, at Parks that charge a Per Vehicle entrance fee, everyone in your single, private non-commercial vehicle (motorcycle, car, van). No, at Parks where a Per Person entrance fee is charged, the National Parks Pass admits the owner, spouse, children and parents.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
so, is an RV concidered a commercial vehicle? i just sent an email to thier question address asking about RV's so we will know as soon as i get a response.
reading further, i see this foot note:
*A private vehicle is defined as a noncommercial vehicle that is being used for private recreational purposes. This includes passenger automobiles, vans, campers, and company-owned vehicles that are leased or rented for private recreation purposes.
but clarifacation from the email question wouldnt hurt.
that was fast!!! got a response allready!!!
It would depend on the use of the RV. Typically, they are used for private purposes. If this is the case, it is considered a private non-commercial vehicle. The pass grants entry to anyone in the vehicle at national parks that have a per vehicle entrance fee. At parks that charge per person, the pass grants entry to the pass holder, their spouse, children, and parents.
Evan McGlaughlin
National Park Foundation
11 Dupont Circle NW, Suite 600
Washington, DC 20036
Bryce Fees $20 - 7 Days Details This fee covers all occupants of a private vehicle (non-commercial).
my pass should cover us in Nik's vehicle
Zion Entrance $20 per vehicle, valid for 7 days. my pass will cover us Canyonlands Passes Fee varies
Use your National Parks Pass or Golden Pass (Age, Eagle and Access) for park entry!
we're covered!!! Arches Entrance $20 per vehicle, valid for 7 days. they show the annual pass link so i assume we are covered
NP Pass
So you got one, correct?
Great!
We need another one for PFs/Rutt. PF, would you please get a pass for your car, too?
We'll merge/split/share those mutual expenses at the end..
Cheers!
i hope we have time to make it to Natural Bridges...its just a little jog to the west of our intended hiway path from Monument Valley to Canyonlands (Islands in the Sky Region) east enterance. from the official site:
Getting There Car The entrance to Natural Bridges is at the end of Highway 275, which is roughly 35 miles west of Blanding on Highway 95. Driving time is roughly 45 minutes.
Getting Around
Visitors usually tour the scenic drive by car or bicycle
Most visitors spend at least two to three hours exploring Natural Bridges. Plan on stopping at the visitor center and touring the scenic drive, with stops at each overlook to view the bridges.
and from another site:
Comments
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
http://photos.mikelanestudios.com/
The more the merrier,
- Kudbegud - Page viscinity
- Mike Lane - Monuments valley.
There are many other places on our route we need a detailed photo intel for.Jack, Maxine, Michiel, wanna pitch in?
I'll take the leftovers..
Since the moment I got my 20D last August, and especially since we decided to visit slot canyons and such in the post-shootout, I was planning to get EF 24mm f3.5L TILT/SHIFT lens for this trip. However, after getting further involved in all dslr game of interchangeable glass I realized that this lens is such a specialty item, that even if I get it, I would probably use it only for this trip and after that it will be simply taking space on my shelf or in my backpack.
So I'm currently considering simply renting it for the trip. If I fall in love with it - I can always buy it later, but at least I'd have solid two weeks of the hands-on experience.
This place (http://www.lensrepro.com/RENTAL/canon.html) has it at $75 per week ($25 per day), so renting it for two weeks would be $150 + some s/h.
And then I thought: since there will be 6 of us on this post-trip, may be we can split/share? Since we'll be pretty much all together in all those places, each of us will have a honestly paid chance to try it out and play with it. And at $25.. $40 per share it would be almost nothing.
Anybody wants in?
smugmug: www.StandOutphoto.smugmug.com
We'll be very glad to provide
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
30D comes out in April, just in time for you to get one:-):D
just got the R1 first of december
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
It means you can sell it almost for the same price, ante some $300-$400 and get brand new 30D:): .. Or get a nice used 20D with no extra cash..:D
I'll be glad to! I'll take Canyonlands and if there aren't any other takers, also Natural Bridges. - Jack
http://www.SplendorousSojourns.com
Canon 1D Mk II N - Canon 5D - Canon EF 17-40 f/4L USM - Canon EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM - Canon EF 85 f/1.8 USM - Canon EF 100 f/2.8 macro - Canon EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS USM
Nik, that sounds good on the surface and I'm thinking YES, but (not to be naysayer) how do we know how we'll be paired for the actualy Shootout since we may be in separate groups. And everybody would have to play nice to share it for those limited photo-ops. Can WE actually do that!?
Jack
http://www.SplendorousSojourns.com
Canon 1D Mk II N - Canon 5D - Canon EF 17-40 f/4L USM - Canon EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM - Canon EF 85 f/1.8 USM - Canon EF 100 f/2.8 macro - Canon EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS USM
They are yours:-)
So, here are our land grants:
Kudbegud - Page viscinity
Mike Lane - Monuments valley
CalfeeRider - Canyonlands and Natural Bridges
Skippy, Michiel?
We'll try to arrange with official shotout that all of us who'd share this lens would be in the same group. And on the post-shootout (for which I think this lens will be the most precious addition) we ARE the one group, since we will all be in one RV and in one tour.
So I don't see any real problems with sharing.
Cheers!
Nightingale and I, and Rutt, plan on hanging around after the shootout at Bryce and Zion for the following week or so also. Rutt does need to be near a major airport at some point, which has not been precisely defined yet. We will be driving from the east to the shootout, and do not plan to make the getogether in Las Vegas before the shootout as it would involve 300 more miles west and then back east for us. Instead we are going to meander down Highway 12 in Utah on the way to Bryce.
We would enjoy hanging around with your group after the shootout if that is welcome. We prefer to stay in a motel since we already have a vehicle, so I would like to know your route plans to set up accomodations in advance if possible.
I will be driving a Honda Ridgeline with three passengers and gear, but could carry another if their gear is in waterproof bags or could be left in the RV during the day. It is four wheel drive and I want to explore some of the back routes if possible, where the RV may not be as usefull.
Kathy and I shot out of Page Arizona a year ago at one of Alan Briot's workshops so I know a tiny bit about the area. I would love to shoot sunrise at Horseshoe Bend again.
And Antelope Canyon also. The time of day is critical for shooting Antelope Canyon as the sun NEEDS to be very high in the sky. It is also very sandy and dusty. Not a place to be changing lenses - Plan what lens you want to use in advance. I used the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 Di and was satisfied. A 17-40 or a 24-20 would also work. I suspect a 24-70 would be ideal. But do not plan on changing lenses in the Canyon.
I hope to meander easterly so that I am near the western Colorado- New Mexico border by Thursday the following week, to allow me ample time for the drive back to Indiana which is a hard two days drive from there.
I want to shoot Monument Valley for two sunrises if possible also. And I definitely want to return to El Morro Nat Monument in New Mexico in the late afternoon if possible.
I am hoping that we can share at least some of your post shoot endeavors Nick. Let me know if any of this will coordinate with your plans.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Our rather detailed schedule can be found here:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=12147&page=10, post #94
I know this thread is rather large, but I'd recommend to read it through, at least starting from that post.
If you wanna do Antelope with us, you may need to check with Kudbegud asap, since he made original reservation. Thus far we reserved six spots in this special photo-tour, and the max number is twelve, if I'm not mistaken..
All spots in our RV are taken, and we did not specifically plan to have motels around our camping points. However it should be possible to park a car next to RV (if you want to set a camp, for instance).
Thanks for the advices! I'm looking forward to talk more about it, and, most of all, to see you joining us on what's gotta be a great one-week trip!
Cheers!
if you want to go to Antelope with us, call 866-645-9102, the one we made the 6 reservations with. you can tell them you are with the Smugmug group and want to be added to the list. our reservation # is ACT00408 so you can refferance us exactly if needed. set up for monday may 22nd, the 2 hour photographers tour, 11am - 2pm.
and horseshoe bend is deffinatly on the list...thanks for the sunrise tip.
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
Path, Rutt: what he said:-)
BTW, guys, if you decide to join all all the way, it would be nice if you could pick up some "area guide" assignments (see a few posts above). Thanks!
Cheers!
Your route map on the link you listed was a great help.
I will try for reservations for the Antelope shoot in the morning.
I will begin looking for reservations in the Desert Rose Inn in Bluff Utah also. Gettting a room in Moab should not be difficult at that time of year unless there is an event occurring I think.
As for things to research, let me read about Moki Dugway and the areas around Monument Valley. I like backroads and 4WD trails - easy ones anyway.
I would also suggest not missing Dead Horse State Park when you are in Moab - it easily rivals the Federal Parks around there.
Here is a pano shot with a 10D from 2004 at Dead Horse State Park I threw together
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Great, so you guys are on your way:-)
Magnificent shot! And, yes, Dead Horse Park was on our list, at least tentatively.
Hope to hear from you when you confirm Antelope and other things.
So, Guiding Assignments currently look like this:
- Kudbegud - Page viscinity
- Mike Lane - Monuments valley
- CalfeeRider - Canyonlands and Natural Bridges
- Pathfinder - Moki Dugway and the areas around Monument Valley
Michiel, Skippy, Nightingale, Rutt - wann join the crowd on some homework?http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
I'll see what I can do.... A new GF, a helluva project in the office and working with a band and finding myself a house has been eating away my time disastrously! (don't even know if that's english or not
Cheers mates!
Michiel de Brieder
http://www.digital-eye.nl
Good to hear from you!
Just let us know what the book's title, so we know what area is yours:-)
PS
Don't forget to bring the CDs/mp3s of that band with you.. We will have a long time on the road, so we need a lot of music...:):
PPS
And take a good care of that GF, will ya
Moon Handbooks, zion & bryce
Photographers Guide to the Grand Canyon & Northern Arizona
Vol 1, Photographing the Southwest
Rand McNally Road Map, Utah
on order, shipped already, Land of the Canyons, Photographers Guide to Utah & Arizona
link: http://sidecanyon.com/acb1/showdetl.cfm??&User_ID=1130603&St=3939&St2=58717743&St3=35114505&DS_ID=32&DID=111&Product_ID=5187
lots more at this site:
http://www.sidecanyon.com/
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
Thanks for the info, Doug!
Also, little birdie told me that Path, Nightingale and Rutt are locked in for the Antelope tour and some other major points! That makes us officially nine!
Man, what a great trip this gonna be!
time is actually getting close, so......
we should start to get the annual pass for National Parks, link below:
http://www.nationalparks.org/Home.asp
and they ahve a photo contest for their magazine!!!
http://www.nationalparks.org/PlanYourParkTrip/PhotoContest-Home.shtml
i just purchased one, and reading the FAQ's, we might be allowed in as a group in a car or RV. please read and see what you think.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=contenttitle vAlign=top align=right>Q.</TD><TD class=contenttitle vAlign=top align=left>Does this get everyone in my vehicle into the park?</TD></TR><TR><TD class=content vAlign=top align=right>A.</TD><TD class=content vAlign=top align=left>Yes, at Parks that charge a Per Vehicle entrance fee, everyone in your single, private non-commercial vehicle (motorcycle, car, van). No, at Parks where a Per Person entrance fee is charged, the National Parks Pass admits the owner, spouse, children and parents.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
so, is an RV concidered a commercial vehicle? i just sent an email to thier question address asking about RV's so we will know as soon as i get a response.
reading further, i see this foot note:
*A private vehicle is defined as a noncommercial vehicle that is being used for private recreational purposes. This includes passenger automobiles, vans, campers, and company-owned vehicles that are leased or rented for private recreation purposes.
but clarifacation from the email question wouldnt hurt.
that was fast!!! got a response allready!!!
It would depend on the use of the RV. Typically, they are used for private purposes. If this is the case, it is considered a private non-commercial vehicle. The pass grants entry to anyone in the vehicle at national parks that have a per vehicle entrance fee. At parks that charge per person, the pass grants entry to the pass holder, their spouse, children, and parents.
Evan McGlaughlin
National Park Foundation
11 Dupont Circle NW, Suite 600
Washington, DC 20036
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
here's the list of parks and fees:
Bryce
Fees
$20 - 7 Days
Details
This fee covers all occupants of a private vehicle (non-commercial).
my pass should cover us in Nik's vehicle
Zion
Entrance
$20 per vehicle, valid for 7 days.
my pass will cover us
Canyonlands
Passes
Fee varies
Use your National Parks Pass or Golden Pass (Age, Eagle and Access) for park entry!
we're covered!!!
Arches
Entrance
$20 per vehicle, valid for 7 days.
they show the annual pass link so i assume we are covered
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud
So you got one, correct?
Great!
We need another one for PFs/Rutt. PF, would you please get a pass for your car, too?
We'll merge/split/share those mutual expenses at the end..
Cheers!
immediately.
while getting the entrance fee's i found this clickable map of all Utah National Parks and National Monuments:
http://www.nps.gov/applications/parksearch/state.cfm?st=ut
i hope we have time to make it to Natural Bridges...its just a little jog to the west of our intended hiway path from Monument Valley to Canyonlands (Islands in the Sky Region) east enterance. from the official site:
Getting There
Car
The entrance to Natural Bridges is at the end of Highway 275, which is roughly 35 miles west of Blanding on Highway 95. Driving time is roughly 45 minutes.
Getting Around
Visitors usually tour the scenic drive by car or bicycle
Most visitors spend at least two to three hours exploring Natural Bridges. Plan on stopping at the visitor center and touring the scenic drive, with stops at each overlook to view the bridges.
and from another site:
The Bridges: A 9 mile one-way loop road has several overlooks of the three bridges, currently known as Sipapu, Kachina and Owachomu after their names were changed to reflect the Hopi Indian history of the area. The last of these three is probably the most spectacular, and also the easiest to hike to - the path into the canyon underneath the bridge is only a few hundred metres. It is the oldest bridge in the park, and rock falls have reduced the thickness to only 9 feet, so it may not be here much longer.
some photos:
http://edwardjohnson.com/gallery/natural_bridges.html
and it close to an intended trip to Valley of the Gods
http://www.amwest-travel.com/awt_valleyofgods.html
http://www.danheller.com/valley-of-gods.html
http://utahpictures.com/ValleyOgods.html
http://virtualguidebooks.com/Utah/Canyonlands/SanJuanRiver/ValleyOfTheGods.html
and more of those super virtual reality panorams for every where we are going. this is worth checking out!!!
http://virtualguidebooks.com/Utah/Canyonlands.html
http://www.pbase.com/kudbegud