flea market is just that a FLEA MARKET......Garage sale............HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH CRITIQUING......A friggin apple to oranges comparison here...........................................
Reading must be hard. Or at least the comprehension must be. We are talking about adding some tag to a post requesting a critique. Similar to what we use in the flea market to denote items that are sold or forsale.
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
I use to actively read and occasionally post in the Whipping Post. Once you had to wait for comments to show up I quickly lost interest in it. I think the site works best when it is not overly moderated. There will always be arguements, disagreements, people that take offense to someone else's post, and a hundred other petty things that happen on a forum. Making drastic changes to try and prevent it from happening only ruins what made the site great to begin with.
The following are MY PERSONAL OPIONIONS on this change and some of the posts in this thread.
Making the Whipping Post comments have to be approved before posted- was a mistake. This drove myself as well as others away from the area.
Eliminating the Whipping Post - is a mistake.
While I think some people have taken things a little harder than neccessary they do show that this change presents a problem. The inability to hear their concerns and view will create a bigger problem.
There is a valid point that regular comments and critiques are not the same as an area dedicated to true critiques. However I do not like some of Art's comments about someone having to be of some level in order to critique. It does not matter if someone is a pro or an amatuer. If they know art and/or photography they have the ability to provide a critique. This site does need a clear break of the two because of the shear number of users and the different things users are after. Art I am only calling you out because we have both been on here for a while and I know you will later be dissappointed in your choice of comments. Your complaint and view is very valid - it is the deliver that is off a bit.
While I would like to see some of the categories re-named or at least clarified I do not want to see a ton of specialized sub categories. It only adds to the moderation problem and creates cliquish groups. Keep it simple.
Gallery type area: Landscape- Wildlife- People- Category for Weddings makes sense but no need to create additional sub categories for kids/candids/seniors etc.. It helps everyone if they see all types of people photography. Macro- Sports- Automotive- (currently not existent-often dumped into sports or other depending on if it is racing, photo shoot, art, or old and rusty) Street- (PJ/Architecture) Journeys-
Another change that I have suggested before is to clean up is the Wide Angle. Big Picture and Mind your own business often cover the very same things. Find better names for these to clearly identify what those two categories are to really include.
Whipping post or something similar can easily be added to Technique or Photo Finsh. A true critique not only covers the basics of photography and the 'rules' but also the post process, technique, sizing, etc.
For me: Post Process- Critiques- and Aspects of Business all fall in line together.
Location location location- should include the dgrin shoot, any of the pro's shoots, as well as individuals seeking location help or posting an upcoming shoot-
My suggestion:
Location, Location, Location: Dgrin Shootouts-(sub cat) Annual shoots- Announcement- Preparing threads- and photos/threads of the shootout. House Pro Workshops- (sub cats) Marc-BD- etc. What to shoot? - (sub cat) I am traveling to .... what should I shoot? Shoot with me- (sub cat) I am shooting ...... Who wants to shoot with me?
Hopefully the powers that be will take all of the comments and suggestions, evaluate the core points and work towards making improvements that move dgrin in a forward motion but still in a direction that separates itself from the other 100 photo forums out there.
A final thought:
Keep and enhance what makes you different and special, rather than copying the sites people are leaving to come here.
Wow, thanks for taking the time to make such great feedback.
I just want to clear up again that we did not moderate the WP for any arguments or personal conflicts. It as an attempt to put the moderation up front, and to keep the forum on topic.
I also want to highlight something that Art brought up, and that is that we never judged images as not being worthy. Our criteria for it being "portfolio quality" was left solely to the person who posted it. IOW, the only time we moved stuff is when they said, "It's not my best, but what do you think?" But we never, ever moved anything because of our own tastes or opinions.
I remember first finding the WP, and I read the rules of the thread (can't find it now to properly quote so please forgive me) and there was Andy basically saying to:
1. Post your best work..
2. Be prepared for anything...
That's in my memory. I heard that clearly, and when I made my first post it was a horsey shot that I had displayed at an exhibit. I was amazed at the critique that came up, particularly from non-horse people. I spent hours on the corrections and posted it in the before/after thread... Others did the same. It was a great concept then, would still be today, so it was hard to understand why even the before/after thread was shut down...
I just want to clear up again that we did not moderate the WP for any arguments or personal conflicts. It as an attempt to put the moderation up front, and to keep the forum on topic.
Well I'll say thanks for clearing up this misconception. When moderation first came down I thought that is was a mistake, wondered what was really going on, so I read through a bunch of then recent threads. What I found was an argument between a former respected contributor, who is no longer contributing, and moderator comments trying to quell an argument. Suddenly there is moderation with no explanation. What's one to think? Mods don't really have to explain why something is being done. This is all about implementation.
OK, so the other part that I remember from Andy's rules was a blurb about how to critique. There were some guidelines there, but most important here, said many times by the mods, was that anyone can critique. A very important part of the WP was that one could actually learn a bit more about how to critique an image. More than anything that's what I learned, all in one place. I spent more time reading other's criticism to see if I understood, agreed, disagreed.. Sorry, but you can post shots in the other sections, ask for c&c all day long, but most won't feel qualified to comment. Other than "great shot," the unqualified criticism won't happen. Sometimes that's just the comment we needed.
I'm not harping on you Shmoo, as you might certainly be referring to something else, but just in case you're referring to some fantasmic replacement to the WP in the works, could we not have introduced it in the same process as killing the old thing...
Well I know just the right smilie for the occassion, and some might agree that I'm at least somewhat qualified to use it.. Everyone pile on now:
:deadhorse
Reading must be hard. Or at least the comprehension must be. We are talking about adding some tag to a post requesting a critique. Similar to what we use in the flea market to denote items that are sold or forsale.
This post borders on a personal attack and coming from a moderator should be unacceptable. There is no need to post in such a derogatory manner. Especially from someone representing the site.
Further more, it appears you are missing the points people are trying to make. The regular categories are not the place to get the same critiques you once got in the whipping post. Many photographers ask for comments and critiques and just get "great shot"...."I agree".... "Maybe a crop". This is comments and feedback but not the same as a critique.
If real critiques were to occur in the regular categories some people will take offense, some people will be afraid to post, and some people will leave.
Keeping real critiques in a separate area is the best for everyone. The people seeking a critique, the people giving critiques, the people not ready for that type of feedback, and the site itself.
In the end the choice is in the hands of the moderators but this thread should have given you enough feedback to realize this change needs to be discussed further.
"The Journey of life is as much in oneself as the roads one travels"
Further more, it appears you are missing the points people are trying to make. The regular categories are not the place to get the same critiques you once got in the whipping post. Many photographers ask for comments and critiques and just get "great shot"...."I agree".... "Maybe a crop". This is comments and feedback but not the same as a critique.
The largest difference between posting a shot in one of the general sections and the WP will be the quantity and quality of the responses. For the most part people who went willingly to the WP rolled up their sleeves and took the critiques looking to improve their skills.
While the vast majority of members may be seeking a nice shot comment, some are clearly interested in a more detailed critique.
It isn't hard for a post to get buried pretty quickly in some of the busier sections forcing the poster to bump it up hoping someone will come along and offer suggestions on how to improve the shot.
A strong variety of members went to the WP to find and offer critiques of the images. Will these same people now search each and every category on the off the wall chance that it contains a thread looking for that critique? And what happens if the poster forgets to add that they are looking for one? At least with a section specifically for that, they wouldn't have to remember to put a "please critique" in the header.
I'm sure mods had already discussed it to death before making such a decision, so all our blabber is nothing but an air movement... However, here's my take...
I for one was excited when WP appeared.
A place where great images are carefully placed and thouroughly critiqued, what could be better?
However, the reality quickly chimed in. Snapshots, pat-wanters and good-samaritans simply crushed the floodgates, burying the naturally rare real good stuff deep below.
A good image takes a long time to conceive and produce, yet it also takes a very long time and a lot of efforts to critique one properly. When stuff like that happens in art school (or in science world) there always is a gauntlet - the professor who teaches the class, along with some other seniors. It's not "free for all", both submitting and critiquing-wise. And without a proper authority in place any such thing quickly degrades to just another online forum to post an arbitraty picture and get "good shooting" comment.
I'm sure mods had already discussed it to death before making such a decision, so all our blabber is nothing but an air movement... However, here's my take...
I for one was excited when WP appeared.
A place where great images are carefully placed and thouroughly critiqued, what could be better?
However, the reality quickly chimed in. Snapshots, pat-wanters and good-samaritans simply crushed the floodgates, burying the naturally rare real good stuff deep below.
A good image takes a long time to conceive and produce, yet it also takes a very long time and a lot of efforts to critique one properly. When stuff like that happens in art school (or in science world) there always is a gauntlet - the professor who teaches the class, along with some other seniors. It's not "free for all", both submitting and critiquing-wise. And without a proper authority in place any such thing quickly degrades to just another online forum to post an arbitraty picture and get "good shooting" comment.
Hence I was very relieved to learn WP's gone.
The problem is that now there's nowhere on the site that provides even the potential for thoughtful critique. But, I have to agree that I wasn't enjoying WP as much as I'd hoped. I think I registered at just the time things started to degrade. David might remember this. My first submission to the WP was rejected because I'd used some ambiguous language in my post that I didn't know whether the images was one of my best or not. While I still thought it was a valuable part of the site, I've felt that it's really been a "Shot of the week" forum for several people for some time.
So a reset is probably in order.
But, I feel it would have been polite to have announced the change in advance and started this discussion before closing it.
I hope something is done to bring back a space for thoughtful discussion and critique. Doing it in the regular forums is hypothetically possible, but it's a bit like trying to have a discourse on Plato while on the subway at rush hour.
It's not "free for all", both submitting and critiquing-wise. And without a proper authority in place any such thing quickly degrades to just another online forum to post an arbitraty picture and get "good shooting" comment.
Hence I was very relieved to learn WP's gone.
I'm not happy it's gone but I can see one way why your "relieved" as it turned out to be a moderator/reader/poster nightmare. Somebody says something harsh and then that person gets offended. NO TOUGH MODERATORS present so things quickly turn sour. Moderators in turn all want to quit and take easy way out. You have a ton of moderators not good at what they were given to do and maybe too nice. I loved the forum and almost willing to start something new somewhere else that's not for wimps but for HONESTY, EDUCATION and tough skins.
MODERATORS - Listen to Art Scott, you have a ton to learn from him even if he seems mad he has wisdom. Deleting his posts was foolish and young. These forums have been great but can easily be forgotten, making your job easy which is maybe what you wanted anyhow...
My first visit to DGrin was immediately responded to with, "holy crap this place is complicated. Do they really need this many forums?" The short answer is no and I find it more than a little amusing that there is so much heat over removing one of them. I guess I should be pretty angry that my local Dairy Queen has been torn down but it turns out I can get homemade ice cream just two blocks from my house.
I don't know about you folks but all this separation gives me a headache. To be perfectly honest I'd rather have every single post dumped into one big pile and then tagged by it's owner so that I can search for what I want. I'm sure the rest of you would vommit but that would do it for me. But, since that is not really an option, has anyone considered the extreme usefullness of simply tagging a post heading with information useful for getting what you want out of it?
C&C is a classic example of how a small, unobtrusive, tag in your title can make your every want and desire known to all who see it. Similarly, could you not also recreate the request process from your beloved WP by simply adding "WP" to your thread title? Correct me if I'm wrong but an enterprising individual could simply search for "WP" and wah-lah! "But I want C&C from an AIR!" Fine, add "AIR-C&C" to your title and she-bang!" If you liked the community you had in another forum then keep it. You folks don't need all these steadfast forums and subforums and opium dens to do so.
You should all keep in mind that moderating and aministrating a site of this site is a huge job. The less forums these folks have to watch the better they will all be at moderating. Moderate yourselves. Administer yourselves. Socialize amongst yourselves. Unite yourselves.
I don't know about you folks but all this separation gives me a headache. To be perfectly honest I'd rather have every single post dumped into one big pile and then tagged by it's owner so that I can search for what I want. I'm sure the rest of you would vommit but that would do it for me. But, since that is not really an option, has anyone considered the extreme usefullness of simply tagging a post heading with information useful for getting what you want out of it?
C&C is a classic example of how a small, unobtrusive, tag in your title can make your every want and desire known to all who see it. Similarly, could you not also recreate the request process from your beloved WP by simply adding "WP" to your thread title? Correct me if I'm wrong but an enterprising individual could simply search for "WP" and wah-lah! "But I want C&C from an AIR!" Fine, add "AIR-C&C" to your title and she-bang!" If you liked the community you had in another forum then keep it. You folks don't need all these steadfast forums and subforums and opium dens to do so
You could get me going on taxonomies and ontologies, navigation and information architecture, but I won't. At least too much. In an ideal world, the hierarchical navigation of a website would simply be a single perspective of the site's content based on a selected entry point. Semantic Web, Web 2.0, Contextual Navigation.
One element of my current work came from working with technical, scientific and medical information in large volumes as well as in limited manuscripts. The holy grail was always being able to repurpose and organise information into an appropriate form depending on the role and context of the content consumer. In theory this is fantastic, but in practice it's very hard to make work.
From a practical standpoint though, think about it from the AIR's perspective. Ideally, you'd want to give them a view that somehow organised and structured any discussion where their services have been requested. Give that same service to everybody and the problem is solved, right?
Keywording and dynamic contextual navigation for DGrin? If they can do this effectively for an unconstrained audience, I want some stock (and I don't buy stock). Until then, using key phrases in subject lines is an unworkable hack. As a community we still need some hierarchy to find what we want to participate in. Including a critique forum.
ps. Do you keep all your personally generated content in a single directory? Do you even use directories?
pps. Didn't mean to go on, but I love talking about strategies and architectures for defining and navigating bounded information universes.
You could get me going on taxonomies and ontologies, navigation and information architecture, but I won't. At least too much. In an ideal world, the hierarchical navigation of a website would simply be a single perspective of the site's content based on a selected entry point. Semantic Web, Web 2.0, Contextual Navigation.
One element of my current work came from working with technical, scientific and medical information in large volumes as well as in limited manuscripts. The holy grail was always being able to repurpose and organise information into an appropriate form depending on the role and context of the content consumer. In theory this is fantastic, but in practice it's very hard to make work.
Ooohhh... talk dirty to me. I thought my oversimplification might get a rise out of someone. This is incredibly interested stuff. I write business analytic software for a living and this really is the problem, across the board, for data collections of any kind. It's fascinating stuff and really gives me a headache sometimes!
From a practical standpoint though, think about it from the AIR's perspective. Ideally, you'd want to give them a view that somehow organised and structured any discussion where their services have been requested. Give that same service to everybody and the problem is solved, right?
Keywording and dynamic contextual navigation for DGrin? If they can do this effectively for an unconstrained audience, I want some stock (and I don't buy stock). Until then, using key phrases in subject lines is an unworkable hack. As a community we still need some hierarchy to find what we want to participate in. Including a critique forum.
I will admit that my suggestion is an oversimplification of the problem. However, providing a free support and social forum to an unlimited number of users is expensive and, as I'm sure we all know, limited to a finite amount of development and organization. To ask SmugMug to not optimize for ease of maintainence is selfish, in my opinion. Instead, I am suggesting that we can find what we want, hack or not, with a little self-imposed structure.
Tags of this nature are not an end goal of a developer, for sure. Yes they are hack-ish but do you have another method for maintaining an [even loose] relationship amongst posts across the various forums? The administrators want people shots in people forums and landscape shots in landscape forums -- so be it. That doesn't mean that former WP'ers, or anyone else looking to tie themselves together, have to completely lose the ties that held them together. Should a better solution arise, then that would be fantastic.
ps. Do you keep all your personally generated content in a single directory? Do you even use directories?
I use Lightroom for photos and, as it organizes automatically by date, I use that mechanism. Though I have visited those folders a couple times to find something I "lost" I typically navigate using tags. Storage theory aside, I find little or no use in a physical storage hierarchy when tags can be employeed for navigation (well, until your tags go missing and you have 10,000 photos in a single folder!).
Since Windows doesn't come with a fancy tagging mechanism I do, obviously, employee lots of folders and structure with my personal and work files. If there were a good tagging solution for those, however, I would definately prefer to delegate the storage responsibility to an application and navigate with my own custom tags.
I'm not happy it's gone but I can see one way why your "relieved" as it turned out to be a moderator/reader/poster nightmare. Somebody says something harsh and then that person gets offended. NO TOUGH MODERATORS present so things quickly turn sour. Moderators in turn all want to quit and take easy way out. You have a ton of moderators not good at what they were given to do and maybe too nice. I loved the forum and almost willing to start something new somewhere else that's not for wimps but for HONESTY, EDUCATION and tough skins.
MODERATORS - Listen to Art Scott, you have a ton to learn from him even if he seems mad he has wisdom. Deleting his posts was foolish and young. These forums have been great but can easily be forgotten, making your job easy which is maybe what you wanted anyhow...
OK, I've had enough.
I deleted Art's post simply so that this thread which discusses a very important issue would be authored by me, so that everyone would know that it's an official discussion of this important issue. I did not censor Art, I asked him to repost so that his voice could be clearly heard. I bent over backwards to make sure that his comments were retained, and I've explained myself many times on this. In return he attacked me and my integrity.
As for being foolish and lazy, you are way off. We volunteer on these forums with only one intention: to make them better. Every thing we do has a great deal of thought put into it. And yes, we do let some heated discussions go for a bit. You all are adults and you can usually work out your differences without us intervening.
I will admit that my suggestion is an oversimplification of the problem.
Wasn't one simple place to have critiques simpler? People who participated didn't have to worry about whether it was in the right place, whether they tagged it, or whether people would see it and comment.
Out of the hundreds of people who participate on this forum on a daily basis, only a small section of them are truly doing what they can to help people move forward in photography. They answer the same old questions over and over, they offer whatever advice they have, they critique when asked. If you look through the WP threads, you will see those same names over and over again. If you continue to make it harder to help people, at some point it becomes not worth the effort. I would hate to see that happen to Dgrin.
Moderation is not easy, and most realize it. For the most part, the moderators here on Dgrin have been very good and easy to deal with. Have they made mistakes? Sure, but I haven't met anyone that hasn't made a mistake or three.
Maybe if the powers that be would have had an open discussion prior to simply closing the WP, the pros and cons could have been weighed and a solution realized.
Obviously the changing of the WP to moderating before posting was an attempt to keep things in line. That slowed down the process considerably.
Sure there were images that were not portfolio quality to most of us, but that does not mean it wasn't for the poster of that image. As far as I know, none of us started at the level that we are at today. Learning by doing is the longest route to the goal. Having those who know help in that process speeds up that goal.
I don't know what all the problems were, so I don't have the solution to those problems, but it is pretty obvious to me that this thread in and of itself proves that the WP was a valuable tool to some.
Wasn't one simple place to have critiques simpler? People who participated didn't have to worry about whether it was in the right place, whether they tagged it, or whether people would see it and comment.
It sure seems that way from a user's point of view but how about administration? I didn't intend to come across as saying that tagging threads was better that WP. I read WP but didn't really make use of it beyond that so I will refrain from placing any value judgment on the forum itself. My position was simply that the loss of the forum does not have to mean the loss of the activity. Those who must have it can still have it. Sure it would take a little effort while posting but it's a possible solution none the less.
The fact is that the administrators have seen fit to remove the forum. Maybe they will change their mind and maybe they will not. What, then, if they don't? Is no solution better than a cheesy one? I think that depends on how much you want WP to live.
The fact is that the administrators have seen fit to remove the forum. Maybe they will change their mind and maybe they will not. What, then, if they don't? Is no solution better than a cheesy one? I think that depends on how much you want WP to live.
I do agree. As I said, I do not know the problems and have no answer or solution for it to make it easier for both users and moderators.
Smugmug has done a wonderful thing with offering this forum to us, and the moderators do a good job of keeping it family friendly and yet accessible. It is a balancing act and not an easy one.
The elimination of the WP will not cause me to leave this forum. The benefits of the knowledge here still outweigh any one section.
I am truly surprised that some people think that the Whipping Post was the only place for critique. Some very good evaluation and advice is available in many of the forums, better in some cases than most of what was posted on the WP. The only reason that you didn't see "great shot" and nothing else on the WP is that moderators deleted those posts. Most people will add a line like "C&C requested" to their posts when seeking criticism, and other members are glad to oblige. Sure, we have all been disappointed at times at the lack of good feedback, but that also happened on the WP. In the end, we decided that the WP was not different enough from the other forums to earn its keep.
SO I GET A PM TELLING ME I HAVE TO REPOST MY THOUGHTS ON THE CLOSING OF THE WP ......WTF wasn't the threads just merged????
Because it wasn't, Art. David is a volunteer here, and he's doing an awesome job for only the reward of having served his fellow photographers. David gave you your post back and asked you kindly to expend a few clicks to repost your comments to this thread. It's not very hard and he doesn't deserve your rage about this particular issue.
If you're angry about it (the temporary deleting and asking you to repost the same thing that was deleted), still, fine - email me and vent.
I'm getting PMs from people wondering why we're deleting posts.... we DO NOT delete posts here unless absolutely necessary, for rules violations. And it has happened very rarely. We take our responsibilities as hosts of your conversations very, very seriously!
I've been checking out PhotoSig as a critique site, and so far I'm impressed. No nonsense about a control freak moderator, no delays in posting, no pretense about "this is my best work", and some decent and helpful critiques.
The problem with the "this is my best work" requirement is that we want our photographs to be critiqued to find out how others see them and what we can do to improve them. Not just our "best" work, but any photograph that we feel has merit. Critiques are for learning, not bragging about "this is my best".
If you admitted, in your text in the Whipping Post submission, that you felt that there was any improvement possible, the submission was rejected. That denied entry to that photograph where you had questions about what could be done to improve it. You could slip it by without asking the questions, but you then had to rely on someone commenting on what you wanted to know.
I know this is the internet, and all, but I am a person on the other end of this conversation. And I, along with the other mods, put a lot of time and effort into making Dgrin a great place.
Because it wasn't, Art. David is a volunteer here, and he's doing an awesome job for only the reward of having served his fellow photographers. David gave you your post back and asked you kindly to expend a few clicks to repost your comments to this thread. It's not very hard and he doesn't deserve your rage about this particular issue.
If you're angry about it (the temporary deleting and asking you to repost the same thing that was deleted), still, fine - email me and vent.
I'm getting PMs from people wondering why we're deleting posts.... we DO NOT delete posts here unless absolutely necessary, for rules violations. And it has happened very rarely. We take our responsibilities as hosts of your conversations very, very seriously!
I re posted and I did vent....on this very forum.....POST #15..........AS I stated then....the original complaint post should have been left alone and david could have easily have put in his explanation into it...but that thread was not under his control...the time stamps were not of his liking so he deleted the thread and ask for us to repost into HIS THREAD ( showing us that he is in need of control) and so I did and I vented also.........
I Know how seriously the mods and those in power take our conversations and our thoughts on what is needed to make the dgrin and Smugmug community's great..........and also how easily some really FANTASTICALLY GREAT ideas that could make community's even stronger have been dismissed.............
As i stated above I quit posting for critique when it took 3 days for a post to appear and I deleted the post my self........I quit giving pro critiques in the WP for the same reason.....NO oNe wants to wait days or even several hours for a critique to appear..............
I still post in the standard casual shots forums and do not care if those shots are critiqued or not.......I post just for postings sake.........and did go thru 3 of the forums and found 15 of my own postings that had been posted as long ago as 2 yrs that had not one comment but over 1k viewings.....so I deleted them also...........
That is the prob with doing away with a very good tool and wanting people to post their best with the casual ....knowing full well that on any given day your post for honest critique can be smothered under pages and pages and pages of posting that people are very proud of that are posted just for the sake of sharing.........and that is just how I view the "shots" forums........they are a place for sharing.....not necessarily for mentor critiquing.......
As for the statement David made of me attacking him: I fired a complaint to him by PM it was not done publicly and I asked for explainations and I never received any replies.....so he takes my complaining directly to him as an attack......at least I did it privately!!!
As for the statement David made of me attacking him: I fired a complaint to him by PM it was not done publicly and I asked for explainations and I never received any replies.....so he takes my complaining directly to him as an attack......at least I did it privately!!!
The problem with the "this is my best work" requirement is that we want our photographs to be critiqued to find out how others see them and what we can do to improve them. Not just our "best" work, but any photograph that we feel has merit. Critiques are for learning, not bragging about "this is my best".
If you admitted, in your text in the Whipping Post submission, that you felt that there was any improvement possible, the submission was rejected. That denied entry to that photograph where you had questions about what could be done to improve it. You could slip it by without asking the questions, but you then had to rely on someone commenting on what you wanted to know.
Tony I am not going to sue you for plagiarism:D:D:Drofl
But this is almost word for word what I said in an earlier post.........
Especially for a beginner making up a first time portfolio, they need a tool such as the WP to help guide them.....IF the gods of DGRIN do not to grant that tool...then there is nothing we as users can do but look else where....
In addition to the critiques that are given all over Dgrin already, do not forget the amazing awesomeness of the critiques being provided by our Artists-in-Residence, too. We're going to replicate what Marc Muench has been doing, in Muench Univ - with B.D. Colen - and more AIRs. Dunno why anyone would complain about that
In addition to the critiques that are given all over Dgrin already, do not forget the amazing awesomeness of the critiques being provided by our Artists-in-Residence, too. We're going to replicate what Marc Muench has been doing, in Muench Univ - with B.D. Colen - and more AIRs. Dunno why anyone would complain about that
Andy, not arguing with that at all and I'm already benefitting from B.D Colen's coaching. Love it. But, I still think the site benefits from having a specialised critique forum. Oh, and a Street forum as well. I'm going to feel funny posting some of my stuff amongst the kid-pics.
Tony I am not going to sue you for plagiarism:D:D:Drofl
But this is almost word for word what I said in an earlier post.........
Especially for a beginner making up a first time portfolio, they need a tool such as the WP to help guide them.....IF the gods of DGRIN do not to grant that tool...then there is nothing we as users can do but look else where....
I assure you that my comments were not based on anything you wrote.
I'm an amateur, and I'm not putting together a portfolio. I've submitted some photos that I genuinely wanted/needed some critique on. Two were rejected - by snippy little "control freak" PMs - because I made the mistake of asking how they could be improved rather than being a hypocrite and saying I thought they were my best efforts. My images were not moved, by the way, but deleted and spun off into space.
I often like my own photographs, and I'm sometimes proud of them. My "best effort", though, is my next photograph.
I know this is the internet, and all, but I am a person on the other end of this conversation. And I, along with the other mods, put a lot of time and effort into making Dgrin a great place.
And I am the person who has received your PMs. You set the tone.
Tony, we don't do this. I'm sorry your feelings were hurt!
Nobody is any kind of control freak. You're dumping on the very volunteers that run this joint, they aren't paid, and yet they show up, day after day, in the face of some really nasty stuff.
We love criticism, and we can stand it - all of us - but give it in a positive, courteous and civil manner. Thanks.
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Reading must be hard. Or at least the comprehension must be. We are talking about adding some tag to a post requesting a critique. Similar to what we use in the flea market to denote items that are sold or forsale.
Wow, thanks for taking the time to make such great feedback.
I just want to clear up again that we did not moderate the WP for any arguments or personal conflicts. It as an attempt to put the moderation up front, and to keep the forum on topic.
I also want to highlight something that Art brought up, and that is that we never judged images as not being worthy. Our criteria for it being "portfolio quality" was left solely to the person who posted it. IOW, the only time we moved stuff is when they said, "It's not my best, but what do you think?" But we never, ever moved anything because of our own tastes or opinions.
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1. Post your best work..
2. Be prepared for anything...
That's in my memory. I heard that clearly, and when I made my first post it was a horsey shot that I had displayed at an exhibit. I was amazed at the critique that came up, particularly from non-horse people. I spent hours on the corrections and posted it in the before/after thread... Others did the same. It was a great concept then, would still be today, so it was hard to understand why even the before/after thread was shut down...
Well I'll say thanks for clearing up this misconception. When moderation first came down I thought that is was a mistake, wondered what was really going on, so I read through a bunch of then recent threads. What I found was an argument between a former respected contributor, who is no longer contributing, and moderator comments trying to quell an argument. Suddenly there is moderation with no explanation. What's one to think? Mods don't really have to explain why something is being done. This is all about implementation.
OK, so the other part that I remember from Andy's rules was a blurb about how to critique. There were some guidelines there, but most important here, said many times by the mods, was that anyone can critique. A very important part of the WP was that one could actually learn a bit more about how to critique an image. More than anything that's what I learned, all in one place. I spent more time reading other's criticism to see if I understood, agreed, disagreed.. Sorry, but you can post shots in the other sections, ask for c&c all day long, but most won't feel qualified to comment. Other than "great shot," the unqualified criticism won't happen. Sometimes that's just the comment we needed.
I'm not harping on you Shmoo, as you might certainly be referring to something else, but just in case you're referring to some fantasmic replacement to the WP in the works, could we not have introduced it in the same process as killing the old thing...
Well I know just the right smilie for the occassion, and some might agree that I'm at least somewhat qualified to use it.. Everyone pile on now:
:deadhorse
The WP is dead... Long live ?????
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and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
This post borders on a personal attack and coming from a moderator should be unacceptable. There is no need to post in such a derogatory manner. Especially from someone representing the site.
Further more, it appears you are missing the points people are trying to make. The regular categories are not the place to get the same critiques you once got in the whipping post. Many photographers ask for comments and critiques and just get "great shot"...."I agree".... "Maybe a crop". This is comments and feedback but not the same as a critique.
If real critiques were to occur in the regular categories some people will take offense, some people will be afraid to post, and some people will leave.
Keeping real critiques in a separate area is the best for everyone. The people seeking a critique, the people giving critiques, the people not ready for that type of feedback, and the site itself.
In the end the choice is in the hands of the moderators but this thread should have given you enough feedback to realize this change needs to be discussed further.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
The largest difference between posting a shot in one of the general sections and the WP will be the quantity and quality of the responses. For the most part people who went willingly to the WP rolled up their sleeves and took the critiques looking to improve their skills.
While the vast majority of members may be seeking a nice shot comment, some are clearly interested in a more detailed critique.
It isn't hard for a post to get buried pretty quickly in some of the busier sections forcing the poster to bump it up hoping someone will come along and offer suggestions on how to improve the shot.
A strong variety of members went to the WP to find and offer critiques of the images. Will these same people now search each and every category on the off the wall chance that it contains a thread looking for that critique? And what happens if the poster forgets to add that they are looking for one? At least with a section specifically for that, they wouldn't have to remember to put a "please critique" in the header.
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I for one was excited when WP appeared.
A place where great images are carefully placed and thouroughly critiqued, what could be better?
However, the reality quickly chimed in. Snapshots, pat-wanters and good-samaritans simply crushed the floodgates, burying the naturally rare real good stuff deep below.
A good image takes a long time to conceive and produce, yet it also takes a very long time and a lot of efforts to critique one properly. When stuff like that happens in art school (or in science world) there always is a gauntlet - the professor who teaches the class, along with some other seniors. It's not "free for all", both submitting and critiquing-wise. And without a proper authority in place any such thing quickly degrades to just another online forum to post an arbitraty picture and get "good shooting" comment.
Hence I was very relieved to learn WP's gone.
The problem is that now there's nowhere on the site that provides even the potential for thoughtful critique. But, I have to agree that I wasn't enjoying WP as much as I'd hoped. I think I registered at just the time things started to degrade. David might remember this. My first submission to the WP was rejected because I'd used some ambiguous language in my post that I didn't know whether the images was one of my best or not. While I still thought it was a valuable part of the site, I've felt that it's really been a "Shot of the week" forum for several people for some time.
So a reset is probably in order.
But, I feel it would have been polite to have announced the change in advance and started this discussion before closing it.
I hope something is done to bring back a space for thoughtful discussion and critique. Doing it in the regular forums is hypothetically possible, but it's a bit like trying to have a discourse on Plato while on the subway at rush hour.
I'm not happy it's gone but I can see one way why your "relieved" as it turned out to be a moderator/reader/poster nightmare. Somebody says something harsh and then that person gets offended. NO TOUGH MODERATORS present so things quickly turn sour. Moderators in turn all want to quit and take easy way out. You have a ton of moderators not good at what they were given to do and maybe too nice. I loved the forum and almost willing to start something new somewhere else that's not for wimps but for HONESTY, EDUCATION and tough skins.
MODERATORS - Listen to Art Scott, you have a ton to learn from him even if he seems mad he has wisdom. Deleting his posts was foolish and young. These forums have been great but can easily be forgotten, making your job easy which is maybe what you wanted anyhow...
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I don't know about you folks but all this separation gives me a headache. To be perfectly honest I'd rather have every single post dumped into one big pile and then tagged by it's owner so that I can search for what I want. I'm sure the rest of you would vommit but that would do it for me. But, since that is not really an option, has anyone considered the extreme usefullness of simply tagging a post heading with information useful for getting what you want out of it?
C&C is a classic example of how a small, unobtrusive, tag in your title can make your every want and desire known to all who see it. Similarly, could you not also recreate the request process from your beloved WP by simply adding "WP" to your thread title? Correct me if I'm wrong but an enterprising individual could simply search for "WP" and wah-lah! "But I want C&C from an AIR!" Fine, add "AIR-C&C" to your title and she-bang!" If you liked the community you had in another forum then keep it. You folks don't need all these steadfast forums and subforums and opium dens to do so.
You should all keep in mind that moderating and aministrating a site of this site is a huge job. The less forums these folks have to watch the better they will all be at moderating. Moderate yourselves. Administer yourselves. Socialize amongst yourselves. Unite yourselves.
You could get me going on taxonomies and ontologies, navigation and information architecture, but I won't. At least too much. In an ideal world, the hierarchical navigation of a website would simply be a single perspective of the site's content based on a selected entry point. Semantic Web, Web 2.0, Contextual Navigation.
One element of my current work came from working with technical, scientific and medical information in large volumes as well as in limited manuscripts. The holy grail was always being able to repurpose and organise information into an appropriate form depending on the role and context of the content consumer. In theory this is fantastic, but in practice it's very hard to make work.
From a practical standpoint though, think about it from the AIR's perspective. Ideally, you'd want to give them a view that somehow organised and structured any discussion where their services have been requested. Give that same service to everybody and the problem is solved, right?
Keywording and dynamic contextual navigation for DGrin? If they can do this effectively for an unconstrained audience, I want some stock (and I don't buy stock). Until then, using key phrases in subject lines is an unworkable hack. As a community we still need some hierarchy to find what we want to participate in. Including a critique forum.
ps. Do you keep all your personally generated content in a single directory? Do you even use directories?
pps. Didn't mean to go on, but I love talking about strategies and architectures for defining and navigating bounded information universes.
ppps. Now I'm a geek.
I will admit that my suggestion is an oversimplification of the problem. However, providing a free support and social forum to an unlimited number of users is expensive and, as I'm sure we all know, limited to a finite amount of development and organization. To ask SmugMug to not optimize for ease of maintainence is selfish, in my opinion. Instead, I am suggesting that we can find what we want, hack or not, with a little self-imposed structure.
Tags of this nature are not an end goal of a developer, for sure. Yes they are hack-ish but do you have another method for maintaining an [even loose] relationship amongst posts across the various forums? The administrators want people shots in people forums and landscape shots in landscape forums -- so be it. That doesn't mean that former WP'ers, or anyone else looking to tie themselves together, have to completely lose the ties that held them together. Should a better solution arise, then that would be fantastic.
I use Lightroom for photos and, as it organizes automatically by date, I use that mechanism. Though I have visited those folders a couple times to find something I "lost" I typically navigate using tags. Storage theory aside, I find little or no use in a physical storage hierarchy when tags can be employeed for navigation (well, until your tags go missing and you have 10,000 photos in a single folder!).
Since Windows doesn't come with a fancy tagging mechanism I do, obviously, employee lots of folders and structure with my personal and work files. If there were a good tagging solution for those, however, I would definately prefer to delegate the storage responsibility to an application and navigate with my own custom tags.
We're all geeks around here aren't we?!
OK, I've had enough.
I deleted Art's post simply so that this thread which discusses a very important issue would be authored by me, so that everyone would know that it's an official discussion of this important issue. I did not censor Art, I asked him to repost so that his voice could be clearly heard. I bent over backwards to make sure that his comments were retained, and I've explained myself many times on this. In return he attacked me and my integrity.
As for being foolish and lazy, you are way off. We volunteer on these forums with only one intention: to make them better. Every thing we do has a great deal of thought put into it. And yes, we do let some heated discussions go for a bit. You all are adults and you can usually work out your differences without us intervening.
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Wasn't one simple place to have critiques simpler? People who participated didn't have to worry about whether it was in the right place, whether they tagged it, or whether people would see it and comment.
Out of the hundreds of people who participate on this forum on a daily basis, only a small section of them are truly doing what they can to help people move forward in photography. They answer the same old questions over and over, they offer whatever advice they have, they critique when asked. If you look through the WP threads, you will see those same names over and over again. If you continue to make it harder to help people, at some point it becomes not worth the effort. I would hate to see that happen to Dgrin.
Moderation is not easy, and most realize it. For the most part, the moderators here on Dgrin have been very good and easy to deal with. Have they made mistakes? Sure, but I haven't met anyone that hasn't made a mistake or three.
Maybe if the powers that be would have had an open discussion prior to simply closing the WP, the pros and cons could have been weighed and a solution realized.
Obviously the changing of the WP to moderating before posting was an attempt to keep things in line. That slowed down the process considerably.
Sure there were images that were not portfolio quality to most of us, but that does not mean it wasn't for the poster of that image. As far as I know, none of us started at the level that we are at today. Learning by doing is the longest route to the goal. Having those who know help in that process speeds up that goal.
I don't know what all the problems were, so I don't have the solution to those problems, but it is pretty obvious to me that this thread in and of itself proves that the WP was a valuable tool to some.
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The fact is that the administrators have seen fit to remove the forum. Maybe they will change their mind and maybe they will not. What, then, if they don't? Is no solution better than a cheesy one? I think that depends on how much you want WP to live.
I do agree. As I said, I do not know the problems and have no answer or solution for it to make it easier for both users and moderators.
Smugmug has done a wonderful thing with offering this forum to us, and the moderators do a good job of keeping it family friendly and yet accessible. It is a balancing act and not an easy one.
The elimination of the WP will not cause me to leave this forum. The benefits of the knowledge here still outweigh any one section.
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Because it wasn't, Art. David is a volunteer here, and he's doing an awesome job for only the reward of having served his fellow photographers. David gave you your post back and asked you kindly to expend a few clicks to repost your comments to this thread. It's not very hard and he doesn't deserve your rage about this particular issue.
If you're angry about it (the temporary deleting and asking you to repost the same thing that was deleted), still, fine - email me and vent.
I'm getting PMs from people wondering why we're deleting posts.... we DO NOT delete posts here unless absolutely necessary, for rules violations. And it has happened very rarely. We take our responsibilities as hosts of your conversations very, very seriously!
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The problem with the "this is my best work" requirement is that we want our photographs to be critiqued to find out how others see them and what we can do to improve them. Not just our "best" work, but any photograph that we feel has merit. Critiques are for learning, not bragging about "this is my best".
If you admitted, in your text in the Whipping Post submission, that you felt that there was any improvement possible, the submission was rejected. That denied entry to that photograph where you had questions about what could be done to improve it. You could slip it by without asking the questions, but you then had to rely on someone commenting on what you wanted to know.
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
Tony,
I know this is the internet, and all, but I am a person on the other end of this conversation. And I, along with the other mods, put a lot of time and effort into making Dgrin a great place.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I re posted and I did vent....on this very forum.....POST #15..........AS I stated then....the original complaint post should have been left alone and david could have easily have put in his explanation into it...but that thread was not under his control...the time stamps were not of his liking so he deleted the thread and ask for us to repost into HIS THREAD ( showing us that he is in need of control) and so I did and I vented also.........
I Know how seriously the mods and those in power take our conversations and our thoughts on what is needed to make the dgrin and Smugmug community's great..........and also how easily some really FANTASTICALLY GREAT ideas that could make community's even stronger have been dismissed.............
As i stated above I quit posting for critique when it took 3 days for a post to appear and I deleted the post my self........I quit giving pro critiques in the WP for the same reason.....NO oNe wants to wait days or even several hours for a critique to appear..............
I still post in the standard casual shots forums and do not care if those shots are critiqued or not.......I post just for postings sake.........and did go thru 3 of the forums and found 15 of my own postings that had been posted as long ago as 2 yrs that had not one comment but over 1k viewings.....so I deleted them also...........
That is the prob with doing away with a very good tool and wanting people to post their best with the casual ....knowing full well that on any given day your post for honest critique can be smothered under pages and pages and pages of posting that people are very proud of that are posted just for the sake of sharing.........and that is just how I view the "shots" forums........they are a place for sharing.....not necessarily for mentor critiquing.......
As for the statement David made of me attacking him: I fired a complaint to him by PM it was not done publicly and I asked for explainations and I never received any replies.....so he takes my complaining directly to him as an attack......at least I did it privately!!!
I wasn't referring to your PM.
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Tony I am not going to sue you for plagiarism:D:D:D
But this is almost word for word what I said in an earlier post.........
Especially for a beginner making up a first time portfolio, they need a tool such as the WP to help guide them.....IF the gods of DGRIN do not to grant that tool...then there is nothing we as users can do but look else where....
IN that case...........If the shoe fits........
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Art, I sent you an immediate reply via PM.
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Andy, not arguing with that at all and I'm already benefitting from B.D Colen's coaching. Love it. But, I still think the site benefits from having a specialised critique forum. Oh, and a Street forum as well. I'm going to feel funny posting some of my stuff amongst the kid-pics.
It's off to work for me now.
I assure you that my comments were not based on anything you wrote.
I'm an amateur, and I'm not putting together a portfolio. I've submitted some photos that I genuinely wanted/needed some critique on. Two were rejected - by snippy little "control freak" PMs - because I made the mistake of asking how they could be improved rather than being a hypocrite and saying I thought they were my best efforts. My images were not moved, by the way, but deleted and spun off into space.
I often like my own photographs, and I'm sometimes proud of them. My "best effort", though, is my next photograph.
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
And I am the person who has received your PMs. You set the tone.
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
Nobody is any kind of control freak. You're dumping on the very volunteers that run this joint, they aren't paid, and yet they show up, day after day, in the face of some really nasty stuff.
We love criticism, and we can stand it - all of us - but give it in a positive, courteous and civil manner. Thanks.
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