It helps the same way when a person is not selected for a limited participation activity, whatever that activity may be: publication, nightclub, Olympics, etc. Here it means s/he is not good enough to qualify even for the least amount of attention. AKA "need to to do more homework". Play more. Learn more. Keep doing it.
not so.....every letter of denial I have received also had at least some positive criticism telling me where i went wrong for their needs........
If a state level athlete makes to finals for the olympics and fails to make the team YOU CAN BET YOUR BUTT THAT HIS COACH ISN'T JUST GOING TO ABANDON HIM......he is going to critique and give postive criticism and positive reinforcement so that athlete gets better in the next 4 yrs and does make the team......
For a person to"do more home work" they have to know what the problems are and what to work on......
to Learn More....one needs to know where one is lacking.......
Keep doing it.....doing what....the same thing over and over and posting and getting no help from the people who could help..........
Worst case is an open faced sandwich. if you can only think of one nice thing to say
i.e.
Nice try, but..... It's crap
not a critique at all this is in its simplest form ABUSE!!!....
How was it crap??? Why was it crap???
This is not a critique it is simply a cop out telling the poster to go away and find something else to do because the one critiquing actually isn't qualified to tell the poster what is actually wrong with what was posted!!!! imho
Explaining how to fix in PSCS4 when the post only has PSE2 is no good either......for a person to learn and garner the ability to improve they need to know what to imrove and how to do it .......without the latest and greatest of the most expensive software out on the market.........
...If a state level athlete makes to finals for the olympics and fails to make the team...YOU CAN BET YOUR BUTT THAT HIS COACH ISN'T JUST GOING TO ABANDON HIM
This is what exactly I'm talking about. Trained person simply didn't make to the next level. He or she understands what's needed and can be told what to do. Plus he trusts his coach and not going to turn against him even if the particular critique was consisted only of "you totally sucked today".
We here, OTOH, mostly have to deal with total novices. Some make it. Many don't. Coaching all of them - properly - would be a full time job none of us can afford. If a person can't take rejection - s/he won't go far anyway, why even bother...
Splitting the load into various forums provides for pushing the work to the areas where the concentration of the local experts are higher. If I decide to get some feedback on the picture of a - totally naked - ladybug ;-), I probably won't post it in GoFigure.
Example of what happens when the suggested prerequisites are not met http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=138586
* purposefully cryptic title
* no clear idea/goal
* no description whatsoever
* no apparent ability to handle the "crapdwich" (or even a "[MOD expletive deleted]burger" ;-)
etc.
it also shows the laziness and arrogance of some of the posters.....we should expect a non american to post in our dialect or even in our perfect language.......sine i am always up for learning I do run googles and words like Lozyn........ i know it is not american english so I immediately google it and and find as the OP of the thread graciously came back and defined it for those who do /did not understand........if this piece were out for Jurying would he needed to to define his title....NO....as a past judge of several INt'L SALONS we had dictionaries from every country that we thought we would have entries from....so we could properly or to the best of our ability translate the titles.....normally non americans have a good reason for saying Lozyn rather than Lounging around......could it be local color or local colour.......we should not expect every title to fit perfectly for OUR needs.......some titles are there to make you think about the title as well as the image...............
but a lot of us americans want it our way and think the world should conform to us.......NOT.
but a lot of us americans want it our way and think the world should conform to us.......NOT.
Dude.. :-)
I'm Russian... So is Yuri... But he always translates his "Privet", even though this is a word most people would know by now.
At any rate... The person in question was provided the critique despite the lack of ANY of the "ideal-would-be-nice-to-have" attributes. Whether he can use it or not - time will show...
This is what exactly I'm talking about. Trained person simply didn't make to the next level. He or she understands what's needed and can be told what to do. WRONG....ATHLETE HAD NO IDEA WHY HE DID NOT SCORE HIGH ENUFF AS HE DID EVERYTHING JUST A PERFECTLY AS THE TOP SCORER......
Plus he trusts his coach and not going to turn against him even if the particular critique was consisted only of "you totally sucked today".
A GOOD COACH WILL NEVER TREAT HIS ATHLETE THAT ABUSIVE.....I am saying a good coach.......
We here, OTOH, mostly have to deal with total novices. Some make it. Many don't. Coaching all of them - properly - would be a full time job none of us can afford.
That is what community is all about....it is not just saying your work is crap get over it and move on......if this forum is going to truly survive, those that feel they are truly better need to mentor also.......there was a poster that bluntly asked for mentoring and I did not feel qualified so I did not answer his plea.....nor did the ones that openly state just how could they think they are...........
If a person can't take rejection - s/he won't go far anyway, why even bother...
This is the practice a lot people take with their children also and those children grow up to be even worse monster's than their parents............
ABSOLUTE COP OUT!!!!! Rejections do not have to be totally cut throat......you do not train a good retriever by kicking the crap out of it because it doesn't retrieve the first time out......you give it encouragement on what it did do good and you help it improve on what it did not do well........if this is your way of training then the dogs gets tired of it and when you reach down for his food bowl he bites your jugglar and leaves you lying a nice red pool of blood.
Splitting the load into various forums provides for pushing the work to the areas where the concentration of the local experts are higher. If I decide to get some feedback on the picture of a - totally naked - ladybug ;-), I probably won't post it in GoFigure.
won't matter with in 15 minutes it will be burried beneath 10-150 other posts that could care less, all because other people are just wanting to share a pic of their new and oof pet skink, turtle, lightning bug, tortise or what ever they shot that day and are proud of............but the clique will go looking for your postings as well as a few others that are deemed worthy and the noobs and beginners will be left out in the cold.................
Dude.. :-)
I'm Russian... So is Yuri... But he always translates his "Privet", even though this is a word most people would know by now.
At any rate... The person in question was provided the critique despite the lack of ANY of the "ideal-would-be-nice-to-have" attributes. Whether he can use it or not - time will show...
I know you're russin amerikan...........and no he did not get a good critique....it starts off with questions about lighting.....even with out my glasses on I can "SEE" where the lighting is coming from.....that poster was not qualified to critique....it is high key....look for the shadows that shows where the lights are positioned......no need to go on as it is just as bad with others "critiques"............and since it was not in the WP it did not need to fit any model to be given a proper critique............
The last few contributions to this melodramatic thread have caught my attention. The issue at hand is how to create a culture of critiquing within Dgrin or whether it is even possible?
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We can mine some clues about what to do and what not to do from what happened in the WP . To me the good stuff about the WP was the adherence to rules, or really meta-rules, about what constitutes a good critique: Emphasizing the what over the how-to.
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The latter is a too-easy distraction from the issues of an image—one can look up most technical instruction from more authoritative sources—but one cannot look up how I see your photograph.
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Describing what is going on in someone else’s photograph, however, requires some significant internal discipline from the critic to sort out what she/he is perceiving. Even harder is communicating that in a civil, constructive manner.
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That’s not an easy piece of stewardship for Dgrin management or especially the mods. I am impressed with--and appreciative of--their volunteer labors and communication skills.
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I’m not being profound in saying it is very intimidating for many photographers to submit work for a public review. I’d say that the biggest failure of the WP was the inability to remove fear as a factor in participating in the forum. Of course calling it the Whipping Post didn’t help, though I personally was amused.
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Another positive attribute of the WP was the holding up of a “portfolio”-level image as the ideal. Unfortunately, folks not in the biz tend not to understand that a portfolio shot is in its own class and, like a few other things, is recognizable fairly easily. Though we didn’t get many portfolio shots in the WP, I feel that the standard serves as an ideal to strive for and to be judged against.
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Otherwise we are aiming for second place. In Monopoly that get you $10 in the beauty contest.
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As a product in the Internet marketplace, Dgrin has visioning and marketing goals. In my opinion, one key reason for the demise of the WP is related to the quality of shots submitted. They never rose to the level of a showcase that could attract professional shooters or artists who would then hook into Smugmug. Dgrin is a marketing extension of Smugmug after all (albeit a very good one). As Richard wrote above, “the WP was not different enough from the other forums to earn its keep.”
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I don’t think critiquing will ever be profitable. But the folks at Photosig demonstrate that it is attractive. Everyone has to critique to post and if you don’t keep up you get locked out. So ya think our mods are tough,huh? But look at the values here: to post you have to play.
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I suggest Dgin tries this play-and-pay approach as a thread in one of the popular shots forums like Landscape or People. Marc Meunch or B.D Colen could serve in their mentor roles (major talents and it is great to have them here), but the focus should be on member skill building—critique and photographic.
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In this thread good people are advocating just put C&C in the subject line and good intentions and magic will follow. Nice sentiment, but the reality of no meta-rules and reference standards combined with cliques, and posts getting lost in the mix will not provide a satisfying mix. And the gravity of most non-critique-specific forum discussion leads to how-to country quickly.
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To me it boils down to whether Dgrin truly loves photography. Sure we all love looking at awesome pictures and talking ‘bout gear. But to love photography is to grow people’s perceptual skills so they can both recognize and produce better photographs. Championing critiques and the respectful interactions the process fosters fulfills that mission.
M
I read this whole thread, and got to this post, and said this is right on. I agree with Art, and Tony, and Nikolai in many parts of this thread. I for on have learned a ton by posting photos for critique in my "other" forum (www.newschoolofphotography.com) that I put a huge amount of participation in. Granted it is much smaller, and much more personal, but that too will change with time. I think we as humans are by nature judgemental in a lot of cases. I know that when I open a thread either here or over on NSOP.com, I find my self judging and critiqing in my head, or out loud to myself. Now whether I post those comments or not depends on where the person put that thread, and if they wanted it critiqued or not. I have noticed the fact that when I post stuff in the general landscapes forum here, they sometimes go days without comment, maybe due to the sheer volume of other threads being put up, either by experienced or beginner photogs. Or maybe my stuff doesn't interest some. This is the big reason I think you need a forum like WP, whether it is called the same or not. I think a place in the the forum for a person to sign in, and tell others they are going to participate in WP or C&C or whatever it is called is a good thing. It does a couple of things. It lets people (maybe potential first posters) know who frequents the forum, so it kinda legitimizes it. Also it legitimizes the people who sign into it. Yes, this can be a good or bad thing, because inevitabaly, someone will think that so and so, who started photography yesterday, has no business critiquing my "experienced work". (Hell I sit around and critique US Navy senior officers every day in the art of submarine tactics...some have years more experience than me, but maybe I bring an experience to the table that they never thought of, or knew about, and it makes them better!!) Critique is a two way street for the reason that the poeple being critiqued will get something out of it, and the people observing the critiquing will learn, 1. Techniques about photography, even if they don't verbally participate in the dicussion, and this may play into their decision to post or not to post in the future, but it will make them better at it, and might insipre them. 2. How to give a critique. (something I had to learn as a Navy Instructor) So here is the bottom lines to my huge long winded post:
1. Get an in-depth critique forum to replace WP.
2. Lay out rules, and a sign in section in them. Enforce them, but don't take it out on all of us if someone gets out of hand. (I hate this mentality, as I deal with it every day in the US Navy way of thinking) (I understand why we in the Navy do this, because we could all live or die by someone's stupid or untrained decision, but seriously, this is the internet.)
3. People need to understand (this should be in the rules) if you can't handle the critique, then don't post/don't get butt hurt. No one is holding a gun to your head making you post a thread!
4. I also think that the critique forum SHOULD NOT be just for a poster's best work. You will never grow as a photographer or in life for that matter, if you don't get in depth, honest critique. We would never need critique if it was our "best" work...
One other thing, I never know which threads in the "genre" forums (landscape, people etc.) truly want critique, hence the fact I do the typical Flickr response of "Gee, nice photo". There are a lot of shots that I see here I want to give basic critiques to, due to stuff like crooked horizons, or what not, but never know if I should. Some people get butt hurt about little things. I know this is an arguement for the "put C&C in the thread title" side, but I think a dedicated critique forum would be a much better solution, due to the fact of the amount of threads in the the regular forums. Your critique will scroll off the page in no time, unless you go in a bump it. I think the dedicated critique forums need to be moderated way less. Let people's threads and replies go up immeadiately. If it needs moderation, then moderate it, but hold the person who is being offensive responsible. I am not saying the mods aren't doing their job here, and I realize the job they do is difficult, but they need to be agressive with enforcement of the rules if a new forum comes about, or WP is re-opened with new rules. If some one screws up, they get one warning, then if it continues, BAN! Deleting of personal attacks for the good order of the forum should occur also. I think just closing a forum without asking the users was not right.
Good points from all above - this is actually turning into a very interesting discussion on what comprises useful technical comment/critique/analysis.
Some general meanderings below:
It seems to me that the newcomers who have had the most prolific responses are those who are giving back to the community as well. Responding in other threads as well as posting their own, asking specific questions, making it clear they truly want to learn. Those posters seem to attract attention within the subject-lable forums fairly quickly.
In general, people are likely to be most comfortable and most willing to offer commentary to people who seem like-minded, are learning about things the critiquer also had to learn specifically, and who are either direct peers (eg the wedding shooters commenting in great detail on each other's shoots), or coming up just behind them (eg mentoring the rising crop who seem interesting to them).
the kind of critique a person needs varies according to where they are in their photographic journey. It is NO good telling somebody who openly admits they're still shooting on fully automatic that they should have stopped down or chosen FEC or, other more advanced topics which assume basic photographic technical knowledge; they'll be baffled, and it comes across as patronizing and unhelpful (even when not intended as such). Accordingly, for an obvious beginner it is hoped that a kind member will point out the obvious like "start reading up on aperture and effect on depth of field" or "try adjusting the ISO as needed - if you don't know about ISO, here's a link" or other basics that may not yet be obvious. In a very few words, one can nudge them in the right direction so that they can grow on their own (one hopes, at least) and then come back having spread their wings a little.
Similarly, it's fatuous for a n00bish type to suggest to an advanced semi-pro shooter that they "need to learn how to shoot manual", or question whether or not they know how ISO affects their shutter speed One has to consider the source, both of the images and of the critique-er
It is always possible to couch a negative comment as a positive action. "Wow, you REALLY picked the wrong ISO for that - that noise is honrible!" vs "Next time you might want to lower the ISO for a shot like this; it will help reduce visible noise". Didn't take much longer to type the second sentence
2. Lay out rules, and a sign in section in them. Enforce them, but don't take it out on all of us if someone gets out of hand. (I hate this mentality, as I deal with it every day in the US Navy way of thinking) (I understand why we in the Navy do this, because we could all live or die by someone's stupid or untrained decision, but seriously, this is the internet.)
3. People need to understand (this should be in the rules) if you can't handle the critique, then don't post/don't get butt hurt. No one is holding a gun to your head making you post a thread!
4. I also think that the critique forum SHOULD NOT be just for a poster's best work. You will never grow as a photographer or in life for that matter, if you don't get in depth, honest critique. We would never need critique if it was our "best" work...
-Andy
I strongly support Rule #4. If I was absolutely sure something is my "best work", I wouldn't bother to have it critiqued. I'd be busy submitting it to national magazines.
What I want are suggestions on improving what I've shot and how I might improve future shots. That should mean that I should be able ask about certain aspects of a submission without worrying about the photo being bounced because I haven't claimed it's my best work.
One other thing, I never know which threads in the "genre" forums (landscape, people etc.) truly want critique, hence the fact I do the typical Flickr response of "Gee, nice photo". There are a lot of shots that I see here I want to give basic critiques to, due to stuff like crooked horizons, or what not, but never know if I should. Some people get butt hurt about little things. I know this is an arguement for the "put C&C in the thread title" side, but I think a dedicated critique forum would be a much better solution
-Andy
The "Put C&C" in the thread title, or stating that critiques are welcome, just doesn't work in the general forums. There are too many people who don't understand that a real critique is often a brutal dissection and they get wounded when something stronger than "the horizon's not straight" is written.
"The Whipping Post" was not all that bad of a forum name. At least it gave people a warning that the critiques there could hurt.
Good points from all above - this is actually turning into a very interesting discussion on what comprises useful technical comment/critique/analysis.
...
Just ramblings over my coffee.
It is always possible to couch a negative comment as a positive action. "Wow, you REALLY picked the wrong ISO for that - that noise is honrible!" vs "Next time you might want to lower the ISO for a shot like this; it will help reduce visible noise". Didn't take much longer to type the second sentence
Just ramblings over my coffee.
- Noise is over powering.
The shooter now knows the problem and can go on in researching it's cause and possible fixes. Either in the techniques forum, Dgin search engine, owners manual, Google, or whatever.... IMO a critique such as this is a gift and should be encouraged. Anything more is absolutely unnecessary IMO.
The shooter now knows the problem and can go on in researching it's cause and possible fixes. Either in the techniques forum, Dgin search engine, owners manual, Google, or whatever.... IMO a critique such as this is a gift and should be encouraged. Anything more is absolutely unnecessary IMO.
Is the Noise the only problem????????????????....if so lets a bit of positive reinforcement...........like maybe .....the only thing I can find wrong is the there seems to bee to much noise for my taste........you see the noise could have been introduced on purpose..................
If it is not the only prob then the poster needs to know that...................also
I tested it, so don't argue!
I have been through the forum and threads, and I can tell you that a lot of them lack professionalism. When pros come in and see all of the pics, I don't think they would want to post. They would choose a place like Onexposure. DGrin needs a place to post ''blow-your-eye-balls-out'' stuff. People see all the normal day to day shots, and decide to post some other place. IMHO, I think that DGrin needs to bring up its overall standards. That way when people look at the forums and threads, they see some real work that is not buried in a bunch of snap shots! I am not saying that there is not good work out there, it's just buried!
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
4. I also think that the critique forum SHOULD NOT be just for a poster's best work. You will never grow as a photographer or in life for that matter, if you don't get in depth, honest critique. We would never need critique if it was our "best" work...
I strongly support Rule #4. If I was absolutely sure something is my "best work", I wouldn't bother to have it critiqued. I'd be busy submitting it to national magazines. ABSOLUTELY!!!thumb
What I want are suggestions on improving what I've shot and how I might improve future shots. That should mean that I should be able ask about certain aspects of a submission without worrying about the photo being bounced because I haven't claimed it's my best work. But this would be your best work for the time being, even tho you know it needs something, not quite sure what, so it goes for a critique and should be given a proper one........with reasons why it doesn't work or isn't portfolio worthy......and the critiquer should be able to remove his personal feelings from the subject matter and style.
There are 2 ways of looking at this.....1- if you know for sure it is your best work to date and it ahs no need of a critique then whay would you want to waste your time and a critiquers time....unless you looking to have your horn blown......
2- But if it is your BEST WORK TO DATE and you know it needs something but YOU are not sure just what it is....then that work....YOUR BEST....is in deed in need of a Critique.......If you know it is portfolio worthy which means it is also salable...it doesn't need to be critiqued........put it in your portfolio as a 16 x 20 (min) and get it up in a gallery for sale ..............
Is the Noise the only problem????????????????....if so lets a bit of positive reinforcement...........like maybe .....the only thing I can find wrong is the there seems to bee to much noise for my taste........you see the noise could have been introduced on purpose..................
*If* the noise was intended, then the shooter can either accept that critique or ignore it. In the end, it's up to him/her and it is their choice.
Dgrin has 38,014 members, as of now. IMM, it makes sense to keep things short-n-sweet. If quality C&C'ers are able to cut 2 thirds of a post (without fear of being called out as a _____), just to get the same message across, then they likely could respond to the needs of 2 thirds more.
If it is not the only prob then the poster needs to know that...................also
Granted...... But if its missed and/or another member even disagrees, then I'd think that that member, *should* offer more insights too. After all,,, there's a VAST difference of skillmanship (is that even a word???)hangin out, out here.
With that, I'll now step back and see where things go - Thanks all, for the discussion.
The Dream is out there....
I hope the suggestions will be taken into serious consideration, hopefully they will become something that actually happens.
I will now also step back and watch the proceedings.
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
I have been through the forum and threads, and I can tell you that a lot of them lack professionalism. When pros come in and see all of the pics, I don't think they would want to post. They would choose a place like Onexposure. DGrin needs a place to post ''blow-your-eye-balls-out'' stuff. People see all the normal day to day shots, and decide to post some other place. IMHO, I think that DGrin needs to bring up its overall standards. That way when people look at the forums and threads, they see some real work that is not buried in a bunch of snap shots! I am not saying that there is not good work out there, it's just buried!
This may be true for pros, but not for us lesser mortals, and afaik dgrin doesn't intend itself to be a "pros only" site (?). I'll be honest: when I was first exploring the various photgraphic places on the net, the fact that dgrin did not *only* present portfolio, professional quality work and had a friendlier tone (the thing I noticed most), a wider range of skill levels, and in general was offering guided encouragement as well as critique is what attracted me (and here is a good place to insert kudos to all the dgrin managers and mods - you all do an excellent job with a thankless task, a point which I should have made explicitly clear in my earlier posts, although I hope my respect for what you do comes through implicitly throughout! ). Seriously - the other photography sites on the net intimidated me so much I was afraid to post at all as somebody getting back into "real" photography after a long time away, and with only the barest bones technical understandidng at the outset. Yes, it IS nice to have the ''blow-your-eye-balls-out'' work somewhere on the site, but it isn't the whole story.
Anyway, I too will be interested to see what TPTB come up with in the light of all the discussion. Above and beyond the relevance to the WP, there have been some interesting and thought-provoking comments made about critquing, perceptions, and photographic goals in general during the course of the thread.
Guys, please. Allow us a change to breathe? Yes, it's coming. Yes you'll need to be patient. Yes it'll be everything everyone wants.
Please, allow the volunteers that do things around here a little time to get it done, okay?
Thank you very much, in advance, for your extra patience.
It's not a matter of not giving the volunteers time to do whatever needs to be done - it's a matter of trying to understand what you're saying. First it's "go out and shoot something you want critiqued", now it's "you need to have patience".
I'm fine with it taken two days, two weeks, or even longer, I'm just trying to figure out which of the above choices it is....
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Comments
not so.....every letter of denial I have received also had at least some positive criticism telling me where i went wrong for their needs........
If a state level athlete makes to finals for the olympics and fails to make the team YOU CAN BET YOUR BUTT THAT HIS COACH ISN'T JUST GOING TO ABANDON HIM......he is going to critique and give postive criticism and positive reinforcement so that athlete gets better in the next 4 yrs and does make the team......
For a person to"do more home work" they have to know what the problems are and what to work on......
to Learn More....one needs to know where one is lacking.......
Keep doing it.....doing what....the same thing over and over and posting and getting no help from the people who could help..........
Sorry Nikolia your assement is wrong.
not a critique at all this is in its simplest form ABUSE!!!....
How was it crap??? Why was it crap???
This is not a critique it is simply a cop out telling the poster to go away and find something else to do because the one critiquing actually isn't qualified to tell the poster what is actually wrong with what was posted!!!! imho
Explaining how to fix in PSCS4 when the post only has PSE2 is no good either......for a person to learn and garner the ability to improve they need to know what to imrove and how to do it .......without the latest and greatest of the most expensive software out on the market.........
We here, OTOH, mostly have to deal with total novices. Some make it. Many don't. Coaching all of them - properly - would be a full time job none of us can afford. If a person can't take rejection - s/he won't go far anyway, why even bother...
Splitting the load into various forums provides for pushing the work to the areas where the concentration of the local experts are higher. If I decide to get some feedback on the picture of a - totally naked - ladybug ;-), I probably won't post it in GoFigure.
it also shows the laziness and arrogance of some of the posters.....we should expect a non american to post in our dialect or even in our perfect language.......sine i am always up for learning I do run googles and words like Lozyn........ i know it is not american english so I immediately google it and and find as the OP of the thread graciously came back and defined it for those who do /did not understand........if this piece were out for Jurying would he needed to to define his title....NO....as a past judge of several INt'L SALONS we had dictionaries from every country that we thought we would have entries from....so we could properly or to the best of our ability translate the titles.....normally non americans have a good reason for saying Lozyn rather than Lounging around......could it be local color or local colour.......we should not expect every title to fit perfectly for OUR needs.......some titles are there to make you think about the title as well as the image...............
but a lot of us americans want it our way and think the world should conform to us.......NOT.
Dude.. :-)
I'm Russian... So is Yuri... But he always translates his "Privet", even though this is a word most people would know by now.
At any rate... The person in question was provided the critique despite the lack of ANY of the "ideal-would-be-nice-to-have" attributes. Whether he can use it or not - time will show...
I know you're russin amerikan...........and no he did not get a good critique....it starts off with questions about lighting.....even with out my glasses on I can "SEE" where the lighting is coming from.....that poster was not qualified to critique....it is high key....look for the shadows that shows where the lights are positioned......no need to go on as it is just as bad with others "critiques"............and since it was not in the WP it did not need to fit any model to be given a proper critique............
I read this whole thread, and got to this post, and said this is right on. I agree with Art, and Tony, and Nikolai in many parts of this thread. I for on have learned a ton by posting photos for critique in my "other" forum (www.newschoolofphotography.com) that I put a huge amount of participation in. Granted it is much smaller, and much more personal, but that too will change with time. I think we as humans are by nature judgemental in a lot of cases. I know that when I open a thread either here or over on NSOP.com, I find my self judging and critiqing in my head, or out loud to myself. Now whether I post those comments or not depends on where the person put that thread, and if they wanted it critiqued or not. I have noticed the fact that when I post stuff in the general landscapes forum here, they sometimes go days without comment, maybe due to the sheer volume of other threads being put up, either by experienced or beginner photogs. Or maybe my stuff doesn't interest some. This is the big reason I think you need a forum like WP, whether it is called the same or not. I think a place in the the forum for a person to sign in, and tell others they are going to participate in WP or C&C or whatever it is called is a good thing. It does a couple of things. It lets people (maybe potential first posters) know who frequents the forum, so it kinda legitimizes it. Also it legitimizes the people who sign into it. Yes, this can be a good or bad thing, because inevitabaly, someone will think that so and so, who started photography yesterday, has no business critiquing my "experienced work". (Hell I sit around and critique US Navy senior officers every day in the art of submarine tactics...some have years more experience than me, but maybe I bring an experience to the table that they never thought of, or knew about, and it makes them better!!) Critique is a two way street for the reason that the poeple being critiqued will get something out of it, and the people observing the critiquing will learn, 1. Techniques about photography, even if they don't verbally participate in the dicussion, and this may play into their decision to post or not to post in the future, but it will make them better at it, and might insipre them. 2. How to give a critique. (something I had to learn as a Navy Instructor) So here is the bottom lines to my huge long winded post:
1. Get an in-depth critique forum to replace WP.
2. Lay out rules, and a sign in section in them. Enforce them, but don't take it out on all of us if someone gets out of hand. (I hate this mentality, as I deal with it every day in the US Navy way of thinking) (I understand why we in the Navy do this, because we could all live or die by someone's stupid or untrained decision, but seriously, this is the internet.)
3. People need to understand (this should be in the rules) if you can't handle the critique, then don't post/don't get butt hurt. No one is holding a gun to your head making you post a thread!
4. I also think that the critique forum SHOULD NOT be just for a poster's best work. You will never grow as a photographer or in life for that matter, if you don't get in depth, honest critique. We would never need critique if it was our "best" work...
-Andy
-Andy
Some general meanderings below:
- It is always possible to couch a negative comment as a positive action. "Wow, you REALLY picked the wrong ISO for that - that noise is honrible!" vs "Next time you might want to lower the ISO for a shot like this; it will help reduce visible noise". Didn't take much longer to type the second sentence
Just ramblings over my coffee.I strongly support Rule #4. If I was absolutely sure something is my "best work", I wouldn't bother to have it critiqued. I'd be busy submitting it to national magazines.
What I want are suggestions on improving what I've shot and how I might improve future shots. That should mean that I should be able ask about certain aspects of a submission without worrying about the photo being bounced because I haven't claimed it's my best work.
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
The "Put C&C" in the thread title, or stating that critiques are welcome, just doesn't work in the general forums. There are too many people who don't understand that a real critique is often a brutal dissection and they get wounded when something stronger than "the horizon's not straight" is written.
"The Whipping Post" was not all that bad of a forum name. At least it gave people a warning that the critiques there could hurt.
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/
- Noise is over powering.
The shooter now knows the problem and can go on in researching it's cause and possible fixes. Either in the techniques forum, Dgin search engine, owners manual, Google, or whatever.... IMO a critique such as this is a gift and should be encouraged. Anything more is absolutely unnecessary IMO.
Is the Noise the only problem????????????????
If it is not the only prob then the poster needs to know that...................also
I have been through the forum and threads, and I can tell you that a lot of them lack professionalism. When pros come in and see all of the pics, I don't think they would want to post. They would choose a place like Onexposure. DGrin needs a place to post ''blow-your-eye-balls-out'' stuff. People see all the normal day to day shots, and decide to post some other place. IMHO, I think that DGrin needs to bring up its overall standards. That way when people look at the forums and threads, they see some real work that is not buried in a bunch of snap shots! I am not saying that there is not good work out there, it's just buried!
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
Welcome to my NEW website!
Mr. Christoferson
There are 2 ways of looking at this.....1- if you know for sure it is your best work to date and it ahs no need of a critique then whay would you want to waste your time and a critiquers time....unless you looking to have your horn blown......
2- But if it is your BEST WORK TO DATE and you know it needs something but YOU are not sure just what it is....then that work....YOUR BEST....is in deed in need of a Critique.......If you know it is portfolio worthy which means it is also salable...it doesn't need to be critiqued........put it in your portfolio as a 16 x 20 (min) and get it up in a gallery for sale ..............
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I hope the suggestions will be taken into serious consideration, hopefully they will become something that actually happens.
I will now also step back and watch the proceedings.
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
Welcome to my NEW website!
Mr. Christoferson
This may be true for pros, but not for us lesser mortals, and afaik dgrin doesn't intend itself to be a "pros only" site (?). I'll be honest: when I was first exploring the various photgraphic places on the net, the fact that dgrin did not *only* present portfolio, professional quality work and had a friendlier tone (the thing I noticed most), a wider range of skill levels, and in general was offering guided encouragement as well as critique is what attracted me (and here is a good place to insert kudos to all the dgrin managers and mods - you all do an excellent job with a thankless task, a point which I should have made explicitly clear in my earlier posts, although I hope my respect for what you do comes through implicitly throughout!
Anyway, I too will be interested to see what TPTB come up with in the light of all the discussion. Above and beyond the relevance to the WP, there have been some interesting and thought-provoking comments made about critquing, perceptions, and photographic goals in general during the course of the thread.
(edited for bad typos)
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Yes it is, but teasing isn't.
Please, allow the volunteers that do things around here a little time to get it done, okay?
Thank you very much, in advance, for your extra patience.
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Good News and look forward to seeing the end result.
Thanks to everyone for raising their concern, suggesting improvements, and the site for taking it all in.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
I'm fine with it taken two days, two weeks, or even longer, I'm just trying to figure out which of the above choices it is....
Perfect! It'll definitely be one of those, so we're all set! Start shooting.
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