I wouldn't call it censoring when posts were deleted for not following the rules, it was just the way that the forum was set up. And there's only one reason for banning someone, and that is for personal attacks. Oh, and spammers. We delete them without mercy!
My mistake David, I got the impression that the critiquing itself
was being censored....
Sadly, we closed the WP, for what was felt to be valid reasons.
...
We'd love to hear from more of you, with any suggestions, comments you have.
Reading this, I can only see a contradiction. First you close WP for "valid reasons" with no notice or request for comment from the community, and now you want to hear from us?
Make up your mind please. If feedback / suggestions were really desired, the mods should've posted their concerns to the community, and gotten their feedback before closing WP.
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Well.....
Very annoying....So, where do I get my pictures critiqued? I am very disappointed. So, in short, what is the reason for closing it down? I agree with tim519.
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
I wouldn't call it censoring when posts were deleted for not following the rules, it was just the way that the forum was set up.
There was no rule that the submitter could not ask for suggestions to improve the image. That, essentially, is what is being asked for when a photograph is submitted for critique.
Yet, the "This is my best work" rule was interpreted as meaning that a request for suggestions of improvement was a declaration that "this isn't my best work" and the submission was rejected.
It was some sort of Catch 22 interpretation of a rule where you could get help provided that you didn't ask for help.
The rule stating that only the photographer's best work was to be submitted was not a good rule in the first place. That's too subjective a standard for any photographer to figure out. Rather than a rule, it should have been a guideline like "Submissions should be limited to your better images that you feel can benefit by constructive suggestions of the other participants in the group. If you have a particular area of concern about your image, explain your concern."
A guideline, rather than a rule, would eliminate the need for the moderator to interpret a rule. The moderator could still reject a submission that was completely inappropriate.
I know for a fact that anyone that contacts Smugmug would receive some form of response, shouldn't the same expectation be held with Dgrin? I do not expect that the staff of Smugmug or the moderaters be the only ones who should respond,
Reading this, I can only see a contradiction. First you close WP for "valid reasons" with no notice or request for comment from the community, and now you want to hear from us?
Make up your mind please. If feedback / suggestions were really desired, the mods should've posted their concerns to the community, and gotten their feedback before closing WP.
It's the internet, people will complain about a change like this. This thread is not a contradiction, it is damage control it is simply an official announcement and a place to vent and voice your opinions without it spreading through the rest of the board.
I am also sad to see the WP go. Mostly because of some of the reaction of people that have received C&C in the other sections.
My opinion though is that Dgrin is for serious photography talk and discussions about that photography. I fully expect and desire C&C for every image I post here and wonder why people don't think like that here. If you just wanted a pat on back and bunch of people saying great shot go to Flickr or post on Facebook.
Because maybe we'll (all together, as a community, with fair and civil discussion) come up with a cool new concept that'll work for everyone?
I don't think shutting down WP the way it was was well done, but this is what I want to talk about now.
How do we, as a community, integrate probing criticism into ever aspect of the site without risking just being able to have some fun. The risk as I see it is it eliminates casual sharing (e.g. What do I do now after "Writer" if I just want to have some fun, add a "No C&C Please" tag?). Most of the time I want to get serious feedback and, well, whipped. But there are other times I simply enjoy sharing and playing with other DGrinners.
How do we, as a community, integrate probing criticism into ever aspect of the site without risking just being able to have some fun. The risk as I see it is it eliminates casual sharing (e.g. What do I do now after "Writer" if I just want to have some fun, add a "No C&C Please" tag?). Most of the time I want to get serious feedback and, well, whipped. But there are other times I simply enjoy sharing and playing with other DGrinners.
I simply think that if the primary goal of a particular post is to get critique, it must be, well, explicitely exhibited, rather than buried in cracking-yourself-up lines and relying on telepathic abilities of others.
If you post a picture in an appropriate category, provide bg info, explain your issues with the image and ask for critique - you will get it, since people would see you're serious about it.
However, if you post a snapshot looking image in, say, Big Picture with no or little explanation, chances for a serious critique would be, imho, abysmal.
Dgrin definitely has a place for both fun and work, you simply need to let us know what you're looking for. Like, you know, coming to a job interview in a clown costume might probably get you a clown position, but hardly a CFO desk.
Dgrin definitely has a place for both fun and work, you simply need to let us know what you're looking for. Like, you know, coming to a job interview in a clown costume might probably get you a clown position, but hardly a CFO desk.
I know a few CFOs that would look better in a clown costume. But I take your point. If this is the change that was intended, it will be a mammoth community effort to adapt and then a constant effort to bring new DGrinners into the fold. But if it manages to happen. Magic.
I know a few CFOs that would look better in a clown costume. But I take your point. If this is the change that was intended, it will be a mammoth community effort to adapt and then a constant effort to bring new DGrinners into the fold. But if it manages to happen. Magic.
I don't see much change is required. I never posted a single image in WP yet I got all the critique I needed in the regular forums. Litlle "C&C welcome" sign goes a long way...
All is needed is a little effort on the OP side to deliver the message.
I went into WP every once in a while and posted once every long while myself. Although I enjoyed the WP and as sad it is that it is gone, I am more interested in seeing where dgrin is going in the future.
I'll just have to remember to put in C&Cs in my posts or titles when I want CCs.
I simply think that if the primary goal of a particular post is to get critique, it must be, well, explicitely exhibited, rather than buried in cracking-yourself-up lines and relying on telepathic abilities of others.
If you post a picture in an appropriate category, provide bg info, explain your issues with the image and ask for critique - you will get it, since people would see you're serious about it.
I have found that it doesn't quite work that way.
IMHO, when people see a "Shooting Star" (such as yourself, Nik), C&C comes fairly freely.... Get a fella that's branching out into new territory, that knows his/her's work is needing something (the people that need C&C), is tough. Sometimes, extremely so. I've personally pulled as many (if not MORE) images that called for C&C, than I have received (even after bumping the threads)... Attaboy's aren't what I'm after and I'm not here to make friends and swap images of my day to day events or showcase previous work that I already know as being good - All I want, is, to become better!
I gotta go with, Art Scott on this, as I believe my threads just got buried in "swapping matter" - Not kicking this pic swap thing, just airing my opinion... People use intraweb sites for different reasons and I'm all for it!
.... But I've pretty much (not totally) given up on making new threads that call for C&C. If I do, rest assured that I'll be PMing past "helpers" for their insights. I was recently thinking of using the WP to see if what I was after, was available there, but not *sure* if my images fit the guidelines... Guess I'll never know.
Modding is tough (I'm a loooong time mod for another, unrelated site that encourages mentoring). It can literally suck the life within ones self, out. Short PM's HAVE to be the norm as there is soooooo many that need to be written AND the title isn't a paid one; the time spent is massive and normally under appreciated because of lack of understanding the position that it is... It's both selfless and thankless - just like most other volunteer positions.
It takes special kind of people to keep it up.
Thanks for the site! Looking forward to the outcome of this dillema.
I pulled this post as it addresses challenges that I have found on dgrin.
I have found that it doesn't quite work that way.
IMHO, when people see a "Shooting Star" (such as yourself, Nik), C&C comes fairly freely.... Get a fella that's branching out into new territory, that knows his/her's work is needing something (the people that need C&C), is tough. Sometimes, extremely so. I've personally pulled as many (if not MORE) images that called for C&C, than I have received (even after bumping the threads)... Attaboy's aren't what I'm after and I'm not here to make friends and swap images of my day to day events or showcase previous work that I already know as being good - All I want, is, to become better!
I gotta go with, Art Scott on this, as I believe my threads just got buried in "swapping matter" - Not kicking this pic swap thing, just airing my opinion... People use intraweb sites for different reasons and I'm all for it!
.... But I've pretty much (not totally) given up on making new threads that call for C&C. If I do, rest assured that I'll be PMing past "helpers" for their insights. I was recently thinking of using the WP to see if what I was after, was available there, but not *sure* if my images fit the guidelines... Guess I'll never know.
Modding is tough (I'm a loooong time mod for another, unrelated site that encourages mentoring). It can literally suck the life within ones self, out. Short PM's HAVE to be the norm as there is soooooo many that need to be written AND the title isn't a paid one; the time spent is massive and normally under appreciated because of lack of understanding the position that it is... It's both selfless and thankless - just like most other volunteer positions.
It takes special kind of people to keep it up.
Thanks for the site! Looking forward to the outcome of this dillema.
Well, naturally I can't speak for everybody, only for myself and what I know... Starting up is always hard, be it a photography or any other trade. People are simply not sure if a newcomer is worth it, since many n00bs ask for a critique while secretly (and often not even so secretly) hoping for a Nobel Prize. And if the lack of comments, or negative comments, discourage such a person from pursuing the trade further - this is exactly what should happen, since apparently such a person doesn't have enough of the true, internal, heart-bound momentum to keep it going no matter what.
Having said that, I truly believe that dgrin has enough "user mass" to provide proper critique to all those who truly seek one.
BTW, lack of critique (accompanied by non-zero number of views) *is* a critique by itself Yes, it's a non-specific one, but would you rather see "this is crap not worth commenting" comment? When you ask a question, you gotta be ready for ANY answer, not necessarily the one you want to hear... Lack of answers is a legit answer, too.
My Take and Suggestion The last few contributions to this melodramatic thread have caught my attention. The issue at hand is how to create a culture of critiquing within Dgrin or whether it is even possible?
We can mine some clues about what to do and what not to do from what happened in the WP . To me the good stuff about the WP was the adherence to rules, or really meta-rules, about what constitutes a good critique: Emphasizing the what over the how-to.
The latter is a too-easy distraction from the issues of an image—one can look up most technical instruction from more authoritative sources—but one cannot look up how I see your photograph.
Describing what is going on in someone else’s photograph, however, requires some significant internal discipline from the critic to sort out what she/he is perceiving. Even harder is communicating that in a civil, constructive manner.
That’s not an easy piece of stewardship for Dgrin management or especially the mods. I am impressed with--and appreciative of--their volunteer labors and communication skills.
I’m not being profound in saying it is very intimidating for many photographers to submit work for a public review. I’d say that the biggest failure of the WP was the inability to remove fear as a factor in participating in the forum. Of course calling it the Whipping Post didn’t help, though I personally was amused.
Another positive attribute of the WP was the holding up of a “portfolio”-level image as the ideal. Unfortunately, folks not in the biz tend not to understand that a portfolio shot is in its own class and, like a few other things, is recognizable fairly easily. Though we didn’t get many portfolio shots in the WP, I feel that the standard serves as an ideal to strive for and to be judged against.
Otherwise we are aiming for second place. In Monopoly that get you $10 in the beauty contest.
As a product in the Internet marketplace, Dgrin has visioning and marketing goals. In my opinion, one key reason for the demise of the WP is related to the quality of shots submitted. They never rose to the level of a showcase that could attract professional shooters or artists who would then hook into Smugmug. Dgrin is a marketing extension of Smugmug after all (albeit a very good one). As Richard wrote above, “the WP was not different enough from the other forums to earn its keep.”
I don’t think critiquing will ever be profitable. But the folks at Photosig demonstrate that it is attractive. Everyone has to critique to post and if you don’t keep up you get locked out. So ya think our mods are tough,huh? But look at the values here: to post you have to play.
I suggest Dgin tries this play-and-pay approach as a thread in one of the popular shots forums like Landscape or People. Marc Meunch or B.D Colen could serve in their mentor roles (major talents and it is great to have them here), but the focus should be on member skill building—critique and photographic.
In this thread good people are advocating just put C&C in the subject line and good intentions and magic will follow. Nice sentiment, but the reality of no meta-rules and reference standards combined with cliques, and posts getting lost in the mix will not provide a satisfying mix. And the gravity of most non-critique-specific forum discussion leads to how-to country quickly.
To me it boils down to whether Dgrin truly loves photography. Sure we all love looking at awesome pictures and talking ‘bout gear. But to love photography is to grow people’s perceptual skills so they can both recognize and produce better photographs. Championing critiques and the respectful interactions the process fosters fulfills that mission.
BTW, lack of critique (accompanied by non-zero number of views) *is* a critique by itself Yes, it's a non-specific one, but would you rather see "this is crap not worth commenting" comment? When you ask a question, you gotta be ready for ANY answer, not necessarily the one you want to hear... Lack of answers is a legit answer, too.
This helps the poster how? Maybe I am wrong in the idea that a forum is a place where one can come to learn and share. It seems as if a select few would like to limit posting to those whose photography measures up to a standard they have in their mind.
We all come from different areas of photography and most are willing to admit that in other areas some direction would help. Others are simply new to photography and truly want some direction.
This helps the poster how? Maybe I am wrong in the idea that a forum is a place where one can come to learn and share. It seems as if a select few would like to limit posting to those whose photography measures up to a standard they have in their mind.
We all come from different areas of photography and most are willing to admit that in other areas some direction would help. Others are simply new to photography and truly want some direction.
It helps the same way when a person is not selected for a limited participation activity, whatever that activity may be: publication, nightclub, Olympics, etc. Here it means s/he is not good enough to qualify even for the least amount of attention. AKA "need to to do more homework". Play more. Learn more. Keep doing it.
OTOH, sometimes the feedback never comes for whatever reason. One gotta learn to deal with it and simply move on. If I had a dollar for each of my image post I got zero comments on when I started 5-6 years ago... ;-)
BTW, lack of critique (accompanied by non-zero number of views) *is* a critique by itself Yes, it's a non-specific one, but would you rather see "this is crap not worth commenting" comment? When you ask a question, you gotta be ready for ANY answer, not necessarily the one you want to hear... Lack of answers is a legit answer, too.
Nik,
I usually agree and, you know I love your work. But this statement, while does not represent the entire forum mentality, would confirm new members' feelings when they start out. Over the past two years or so that I have been here, I think we have met some who ask the very same question. "My thread has so-so many views, but no one comments! What gives?" Of course Andy, replied most graciously that it is sometimes google bots that add to the tally at that time (or was it Richard.. ).
But for someone to write that statement... it is really a downer. Whether that poster follows up by sucking it up or sulking is entirely up to them, but it really doesn't motivate them to do better and try again. Maybe they do it on their own and do get better, but don't share their results.
*edit*
I'd be rich too, for the every thread with no response!
OTOH, sometimes the feedback never comes for whatever reason. One gotta learn to deal with it and simply move on. If I had a dollar for each of my image post I got zero comments on when I started 5-6 years ago... ;-)
Some may believe that is all the more reason to help those that come behind you.
Don't you think that you would have learned faster and easier with some guidance in the beginning?
Some may believe that is all the more reason to help those that come behind you.
Don't you think that you would have learned faster and easier with some guidance in the beginning?
I think that would be subjective, as we all have different learning methods and strategies. Some learn faster and better with the help of others offering some guidance and others learn by experimenting and trial by error.
I think that would be subjective, as we all have different learning methods and strategies. Some learn faster and better with the help of others offering some guidance and others learn by experimenting and trial by error.
Very true, but it is becoming very clear that some are choosing to limit that option to the latter.
Some may believe that is all the more reason to help those that come behind you.
Don't you think that you would have learned faster and easier with some guidance in the beginning?
I do. And thus I do provide one, at least weekly ;-)
Because maybe we'll (all together, as a community, with fair and civil discussion) come up with a cool new concept that'll work for everyone?
I would submit that one doesn't generally take away one resource or program w/out having a replacement resource / program already in place.
Also, the suggested alternatives of watching the individual forums and doing the C&C there has serious problems of it's own - as much related to volume and C&C staying w/in the 'rules' that were maintained on the 'post.
Now, if there was a way to cross-post a topic to whatever is the post's successor and the specialized forum in question, that would serve to get critiques in forums as well as have a central place for people to "see" pics to C&C w/out the associated noise of the sub-forum.
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So for those that used the WP as it was intended ...... where do they get the guidance they want and need?????
TO SAY JUST POST YOUR BEST LANDSCAPE IN THE LANDSCAPE OR YOUR BEST PORTRAIT IN THE PEOPLE SECTION IS ABSOLUTE UNLOGICAL DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF STUFF DUMPED IN THE VARIOUS SECTIONS THAT COULD NOT HOLD A SPITBALL TO A WINDOW TO MOST THAT WAS POSTED IN THE WP AND FOR GOOD REASON.................
I believe that i was one of the ones who used the WP rightly, so now where do I get critiqued by pros? I totally agree with Art Scott. You GUYS have taken away an excellent learning center for many people. The only spot that has better shot is DGrin Challenges. I think that you GUYS should re-open the WP, and make it a non- profitable organization! Get pros in there to critique, that you still have a learning center. I think that if you have some pros critiquing in there, you could eliminate moderating it.
I think that the main problem is that the MODS wanted it to bring in pros so that they, of course, could get more money. That in itself was wrong, in this case. If you MODS think about in a business manner, then think about it this way. You might lose some customers because YOU, and You alone, are responsible for shutting down one of the best learning centers on the entire internet! That my 10 cents worth. Tell me if I am wrong please.
Let me add something else. Change the name, don't use the WHIPPING POST, call it.....The Learning Center. You want to attract more business, that will do it for you my friends.
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
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Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
I think that the main problem is that the MODS wanted it to bring in pros so that they, of course, could get more money. That in itself was wrong, in this case. If you MODS think about in a business manner, then think about it this way. You might lose some customers because YOU, and You alone, are responsible for shutting down one of the best learning centers on the entire internet! That my 10 cents worth. Tell me if I am wrong please.
Happy to do so. 'MODS' are unpaid volunteers. I, for one, would never do it. Mostly because I'd have to remove one specific person from my 'Ignore' list and take all their incoherent ramblings, because it would be my *job* to do so.
It's a _very_ thankless job, and I'm sorry, but accusing them of doing it for money for pros (erm, if anything the pros they bring in are PAID, not payING) is a slap in the face.
I think that the main problem is that the MODS wanted it to bring in pros so that they, of course, could get more money. That in itself was wrong, in this case. If you MODS think about in a business manner, then think about it this way. You might lose some customers because YOU, and You alone, are responsible for shutting down one of the best learning centers on the entire internet! That my 10 cents worth. Tell me if I am wrong please.
It's hard for me to express how much this saddens me.
The mods here are volunteers doing their best to make this a fun, lively and informative forum.
We are not censors. We are not out to make a buck. Or any of the other things we've been accused of here.
Unfounded wild conjecture like this does nothing but damage your forum.
The last few contributions to this melodramatic thread have caught my attention. The issue at hand is how to create a culture of critiquing within Dgrin or whether it is even possible?
<o:p> </o:p>
We can mine some clues about what to do and what not to do from what happened in the WP . To me the good stuff about the WP was the adherence to rules, or really meta-rules, about what constitutes a good critique: Emphasizing the what over the how-to.
<o:p> </o:p>
The latter is a too-easy distraction from the issues of an image—one can look up most technical instruction from more authoritative sources—but one cannot look up how I see your photograph.
<o:p> </o:p>
Describing what is going on in someone else’s photograph, however, requires some significant internal discipline from the critic to sort out what she/he is perceiving. Even harder is communicating that in a civil, constructive manner.
<o:p> </o:p>
That’s not an easy piece of stewardship for Dgrin management or especially the mods. I am impressed with--and appreciative of--their volunteer labors and communication skills.
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m not being profound in saying it is very intimidating for many photographers to submit work for a public review. I’d say that the biggest failure of the WP was the inability to remove fear as a factor in participating in the forum. Of course calling it the Whipping Post didn’t help, though I personally was amused.
<o:p> </o:p>
Another positive attribute of the WP was the holding up of a “portfolio”-level image as the ideal. Unfortunately, folks not in the biz tend not to understand that a portfolio shot is in its own class and, like a few other things, is recognizable fairly easily. Though we didn’t get many portfolio shots in the WP, I feel that the standard serves as an ideal to strive for and to be judged against.
<o:p> </o:p>
Otherwise we are aiming for second place. In Monopoly that get you $10 in the beauty contest.
<o:p> </o:p>
As a product in the Internet marketplace, Dgrin has visioning and marketing goals. In my opinion, one key reason for the demise of the WP is related to the quality of shots submitted. They never rose to the level of a showcase that could attract professional shooters or artists who would then hook into Smugmug. Dgrin is a marketing extension of Smugmug after all (albeit a very good one). As Richard wrote above, “the WP was not different enough from the other forums to earn its keep.”
<o:p> </o:p>
I don’t think critiquing will ever be profitable. But the folks at Photosig demonstrate that it is attractive. Everyone has to critique to post and if you don’t keep up you get locked out. So ya think our mods are tough,huh? But look at the values here: to post you have to play.
<o:p> </o:p>
I suggest Dgin tries this play-and-pay approach as a thread in one of the popular shots forums like Landscape or People. Marc Meunch or B.D Colen could serve in their mentor roles (major talents and it is great to have them here), but the focus should be on member skill building—critique and photographic.
<o:p> </o:p>
In this thread good people are advocating just put C&C in the subject line and good intentions and magic will follow. Nice sentiment, but the reality of no meta-rules and reference standards combined with cliques, and posts getting lost in the mix will not provide a satisfying mix. And the gravity of most non-critique-specific forum discussion leads to how-to country quickly.
<o:p> </o:p>
To me it boils down to whether Dgrin truly loves photography. Sure we all love looking at awesome pictures and talking ‘bout gear. But to love photography is to grow people’s perceptual skills so they can both recognize and produce better photographs. Championing critiques and the respectful interactions the process fosters fulfills that mission.
Comments
My mistake David, I got the impression that the critiquing itself
was being censored.
Anyways.. thanks for listening...
Kat
Make up your mind please. If feedback / suggestions were really desired, the mods should've posted their concerns to the community, and gotten their feedback before closing WP.
Very annoying....So, where do I get my pictures critiqued? I am very disappointed. So, in short, what is the reason for closing it down? I agree with tim519.
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Mr. Christoferson
There was no rule that the submitter could not ask for suggestions to improve the image. That, essentially, is what is being asked for when a photograph is submitted for critique.
Yet, the "This is my best work" rule was interpreted as meaning that a request for suggestions of improvement was a declaration that "this isn't my best work" and the submission was rejected.
It was some sort of Catch 22 interpretation of a rule where you could get help provided that you didn't ask for help.
The rule stating that only the photographer's best work was to be submitted was not a good rule in the first place. That's too subjective a standard for any photographer to figure out. Rather than a rule, it should have been a guideline like "Submissions should be limited to your better images that you feel can benefit by constructive suggestions of the other participants in the group. If you have a particular area of concern about your image, explain your concern."
A guideline, rather than a rule, would eliminate the need for the moderator to interpret a rule. The moderator could still reject a submission that was completely inappropriate.
Please submit images that you consider to be
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Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
It's the internet, people will complain about a change like this. This thread is not a contradiction, it is damage control
I am also sad to see the WP go. Mostly because of some of the reaction of people that have received C&C in the other sections.
My opinion though is that Dgrin is for serious photography talk and discussions about that photography. I fully expect and desire C&C for every image I post here and wonder why people don't think like that here. If you just wanted a pat on back and bunch of people saying great shot go to Flickr or post on Facebook.
I don't think shutting down WP the way it was was well done, but this is what I want to talk about now.
How do we, as a community, integrate probing criticism into ever aspect of the site without risking just being able to have some fun. The risk as I see it is it eliminates casual sharing (e.g. What do I do now after "Writer" if I just want to have some fun, add a "No C&C Please" tag?). Most of the time I want to get serious feedback and, well, whipped. But there are other times I simply enjoy sharing and playing with other DGrinners.
If you post a picture in an appropriate category, provide bg info, explain your issues with the image and ask for critique - you will get it, since people would see you're serious about it.
However, if you post a snapshot looking image in, say, Big Picture with no or little explanation, chances for a serious critique would be, imho, abysmal.
Dgrin definitely has a place for both fun and work, you simply need to let us know what you're looking for. Like, you know, coming to a job interview in a clown costume might probably get you a clown position, but hardly a CFO desk.
I know a few CFOs that would look better in a clown costume. But I take your point. If this is the change that was intended, it will be a mammoth community effort to adapt and then a constant effort to bring new DGrinners into the fold. But if it manages to happen. Magic.
All is needed is a little effort on the OP side to deliver the message.
I'll just have to remember to put in C&Cs in my posts or titles when I want CCs.
www.tednghiem.com
Having said that, I truly believe that dgrin has enough "user mass" to provide proper critique to all those who truly seek one.
BTW, lack of critique (accompanied by non-zero number of views) *is* a critique by itself
The last few contributions to this melodramatic thread have caught my attention. The issue at hand is how to create a culture of critiquing within Dgrin or whether it is even possible?
We can mine some clues about what to do and what not to do from what happened in the WP . To me the good stuff about the WP was the adherence to rules, or really meta-rules, about what constitutes a good critique: Emphasizing the what over the how-to.
The latter is a too-easy distraction from the issues of an image—one can look up most technical instruction from more authoritative sources—but one cannot look up how I see your photograph.
Describing what is going on in someone else’s photograph, however, requires some significant internal discipline from the critic to sort out what she/he is perceiving. Even harder is communicating that in a civil, constructive manner.
That’s not an easy piece of stewardship for Dgrin management or especially the mods. I am impressed with--and appreciative of--their volunteer labors and communication skills.
I’m not being profound in saying it is very intimidating for many photographers to submit work for a public review. I’d say that the biggest failure of the WP was the inability to remove fear as a factor in participating in the forum. Of course calling it the Whipping Post didn’t help, though I personally was amused.
Another positive attribute of the WP was the holding up of a “portfolio”-level image as the ideal. Unfortunately, folks not in the biz tend not to understand that a portfolio shot is in its own class and, like a few other things, is recognizable fairly easily. Though we didn’t get many portfolio shots in the WP, I feel that the standard serves as an ideal to strive for and to be judged against.
Otherwise we are aiming for second place. In Monopoly that get you $10 in the beauty contest.
As a product in the Internet marketplace, Dgrin has visioning and marketing goals. In my opinion, one key reason for the demise of the WP is related to the quality of shots submitted. They never rose to the level of a showcase that could attract professional shooters or artists who would then hook into Smugmug. Dgrin is a marketing extension of Smugmug after all (albeit a very good one). As Richard wrote above, “the WP was not different enough from the other forums to earn its keep.”
I don’t think critiquing will ever be profitable. But the folks at Photosig demonstrate that it is attractive. Everyone has to critique to post and if you don’t keep up you get locked out. So ya think our mods are tough,huh? But look at the values here: to post you have to play.
I suggest Dgin tries this play-and-pay approach as a thread in one of the popular shots forums like Landscape or People. Marc Meunch or B.D Colen could serve in their mentor roles (major talents and it is great to have them here), but the focus should be on member skill building—critique and photographic.
In this thread good people are advocating just put C&C in the subject line and good intentions and magic will follow. Nice sentiment, but the reality of no meta-rules and reference standards combined with cliques, and posts getting lost in the mix will not provide a satisfying mix. And the gravity of most non-critique-specific forum discussion leads to how-to country quickly.
To me it boils down to whether Dgrin truly loves photography. Sure we all love looking at awesome pictures and talking ‘bout gear. But to love photography is to grow people’s perceptual skills so they can both recognize and produce better photographs. Championing critiques and the respectful interactions the process fosters fulfills that mission.
M
This helps the poster how? Maybe I am wrong in the idea that a forum is a place where one can come to learn and share. It seems as if a select few would like to limit posting to those whose photography measures up to a standard they have in their mind.
We all come from different areas of photography and most are willing to admit that in other areas some direction would help. Others are simply new to photography and truly want some direction.
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OTOH, sometimes the feedback never comes for whatever reason. One gotta learn to deal with it and simply move on. If I had a dollar for each of my image post I got zero comments on when I started 5-6 years ago... ;-)
Nik,
I usually agree and, you know I love your work. But this statement, while does not represent the entire forum mentality, would confirm new members' feelings when they start out. Over the past two years or so that I have been here, I think we have met some who ask the very same question. "My thread has so-so many views, but no one comments! What gives?" Of course Andy, replied most graciously that it is sometimes google bots that add to the tally at that time (or was it Richard..
But for someone to write that statement... it is really a downer. Whether that poster follows up by sucking it up or sulking is entirely up to them, but it really doesn't motivate them to do better and try again. Maybe they do it on their own and do get better, but don't share their results.
*edit*
I'd be rich too, for the every thread with no response!
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Some may believe that is all the more reason to help those that come behind you.
Don't you think that you would have learned faster and easier with some guidance in the beginning?
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I think that would be subjective, as we all have different learning methods and strategies. Some learn faster and better with the help of others offering some guidance and others learn by experimenting and trial by error.
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Very true, but it is becoming very clear that some are choosing to limit that option to the latter.
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Also, the suggested alternatives of watching the individual forums and doing the C&C there has serious problems of it's own - as much related to volume and C&C staying w/in the 'rules' that were maintained on the 'post.
Now, if there was a way to cross-post a topic to whatever is the post's successor and the specialized forum in question, that would serve to get critiques in forums as well as have a central place for people to "see" pics to C&C w/out the associated noise of the sub-forum.
I believe that i was one of the ones who used the WP rightly, so now where do I get critiqued by pros? I totally agree with Art Scott. You GUYS have taken away an excellent learning center for many people. The only spot that has better shot is DGrin Challenges. I think that you GUYS should re-open the WP, and make it a non- profitable organization! Get pros in there to critique, that you still have a learning center. I think that if you have some pros critiquing in there, you could eliminate moderating it.
I think that the main problem is that the MODS wanted it to bring in pros so that they, of course, could get more money. That in itself was wrong, in this case. If you MODS think about in a business manner, then think about it this way. You might lose some customers because YOU, and You alone, are responsible for shutting down one of the best learning centers on the entire internet! That my 10 cents worth. Tell me if I am wrong please.
Let me add something else. Change the name, don't use the WHIPPING POST, call it.....The Learning Center. You want to attract more business, that will do it for you my friends.
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Happy to do so. 'MODS' are unpaid volunteers. I, for one, would never do it. Mostly because I'd have to remove one specific person from my 'Ignore' list and take all their incoherent ramblings, because it would be my *job* to do so.
It's a _very_ thankless job, and I'm sorry, but accusing them of doing it for money for pros (erm, if anything the pros they bring in are PAID, not payING) is a slap in the face.
It's hard for me to express how much this saddens me.
The mods here are volunteers doing their best to make this a fun, lively and informative forum.
We are not censors. We are not out to make a buck. Or any of the other things we've been accused of here.
Unfounded wild conjecture like this does nothing but damage your forum.
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With love,
Dan
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The WP was not set up for you to be critiqued by pros, and the vast majority of crits there were by amateurs, many of whom were beginners.
We've already mentioned B.D. Colen and Marc Muench as two pros that will critique your work.
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Thanks, Miguel for taking the time to give us such valuable feedback. <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >
EDIT: I just noticed that you're already getting some great feedback outside of the WP! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/clap.gif" border="0" alt="" >
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