One thing that would defintely moved *me* into giving a post some time and possibly a feedback is if the OP would start with one.
Imagine a post which includes the following:
clear title
description of idea
tactical goals that were set to reach that idea
equipment used
environmental circumstances
SOOC frame
post-processing used (schematically at least)
final image
reasoning of what worked and what not
optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
For me, such a post would clearly show that:
this most likely is NOT a snapshot
OP is willing to spend time to work on the image as opposed to throwing in a (few dozen of) random frame(s) and asking "what's wrong with it/them" (the correct question in fact would be "what's wrong with OP" ;-)
OP is capable of analyzing his/her own work and hence most likely capable of accepting the feedback
Just a thought...
Thanks Nik for taking the time to put your thoughts into words.
I've cut/copy/pasted the above text and saved it for use the next time I'm seeking critique. Again, thanks....it probably seemed very simple and logical to you.....but sometime a newbie just needs to be clued in. Again, THANKS!
I think this thread is finally headed in a positive direction. Here are some of the suggestions that I tend to agree with. I really hope that we can come together and work this thing out. (In fact, I'm confident that we will.)
_____________________________________
A place where anyone in there knows that if you post there it is because you want honest CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing. Also that anyone can give an opinion but that you don't critique someone else's photo unless you are able to explain how to fix whatever it is that you think is not working.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Set aside an area in each of the shots forums specifically dedicated to c&c. Move anything that isn't c&c back out to the parent and vice-versa. Initially it will be more legwork, but once people get the feel for it you'll only have to handle the occasional person who doesn't bother/know how to read the forum readmes/stickies.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Imagine a post which includes the following: <o:p></o:p>
clear title <o:p></o:p>
description of idea <o:p></o:p>
tactical goals that were set to reach that idea <o:p></o:p>
equipment used <o:p></o:p>
environmental circumstances <o:p></o:p>
SOOC frame <o:p></o:p>
post-processing used (schematically at least) <o:p></o:p>
final image <o:p></o:p>
reasoning of what worked and what not <o:p></o:p>
optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
___________________________________________
Let's keep working on this. — Kevin
FWIW, I have seen forums where each genre also had its own critique thread and it was awful. It really cheapened the often excellent feedback that we have in those areas on Dgrin....and reserved it for ONLY the critique areas.
I too am glad that this thread has rolled over into something constructive and positive. Im only a few weeks "in" as a moderator, and was really taken aback by some of the harsher comments directed at other moderators...and also to all of us in general. THAT, was tragic.
I volunteer my time with the intent of helping to keep Dgrin the best photographer friendly board on the web.......period.<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >
* no apparent ability to handle the "crapdwich" (or even a "[MOD expletive deleted]burger" ;-)
IMHO, that's OK.... Learning how "to take it" is just part of the process. It *shouldn't* be toooo hard for Mod's to keep a handle on things like this, if they happen to go over-board (?). This person will either learn or quit trying - Hopefully, he/she will learn.
I too saw that thread earlier and didn't comment, simply because all that was posted, was a pic with no rationale for it being there.... I'm not The Amazing Kreskin!
Example of what happens when the suggested prerequisites are not met http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=138586
* purposefully cryptic title
* no clear idea/goal
* no description whatsoever
* no apparent ability to handle the "crapdwich" (or even a "[MOD expletive deleted]burger" ;-)
etc.
Yet you still gave valuable information ???? I truly do not understand why this is becoming so difficult. You have given plenty of advice without the poster describing every possible aspect of the image before. Here is your response to that thread you posted.
Nice try!
Unfortunately, face, pose, dress, lighting and the background are in a total disarray and do not match each other.
As Ben put it recenlty, shooting a pretty girl is a lot more than just shooting a pretty girl.
Start with lowkey and 1-2 lights. Get the "why" first, then approach the "how".
Keep shooting! :-)
More often than not I have read many posts from you giving some form of advice or critique. Recently that seems to have changed and you are much shorter with the person asking for advice.
A very common theme happening here on Dgrin.
We all get a little tired of answering the same questions over and over again, and we all get tired of answering questions that should be common sense, but come on..
I wish someone would someone would take 5 minutes of their life and explain the point of being on a forum if it isn't for sharing and learning?
I'm starting to see this thread heading in 2 different directions.
The first being the original intent of talking about the whipping post and whether it has value.
The second, more recently is sort of diverging into "what makes a good critique" and "what should someone looking for a critique be prepared to offer when asking?"
Should there be an additional discussion opened about that in parallel?
Maybe a critiquing FAQ? I know that can end up being a very, very deep hole...
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm trying... However, like everybody, I only have so much mental bandwidth to spare, and with the amount of the newcomers (which I guess is good for Dgrin) it's inevitably getting spread thin...
Hey, folks, I've had to go through and deleted a four-letter word. We're a family forum and request that you use a little creativity to find other ways of expressing yourselves. Thanks!
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm trying... However, like everybody, I only have so much mental bandwidth to spare, and with the amount of the newcomers (which I guess is good for Dgrin) it's inevitably getting spread thin...
Nikolai,
You have a growing expertise that many viewers of this forum can only wish for. Whether you like it or not, some are purposely going to look to you for answers so that they can grow their knowledge.
I would hope that you do not limit this sharing to the technique section. I only work with models once a month or so in my area of work, and when I do, I look back at your work and advice to further my images for my clients.
Your work in the technique section is exactly what is needed in a critique section. A place where those who choose can go to get the advice that is needed to improve.
Maybe Dgrin can ask for a handful of dedicated members to host or moderate a specific critique section. One single location where people can go specifically to learn from those willing to share.
Maybe Dgrin can ask for a handful of dedicated members to host or moderate a specific critique section. One single location where people can go specifically to learn from those willing to share.
... And we immediately are back to step one, aka WP. A handful of volunteers buried under the flood of snapshots and pat-seekers.
Yes, I do know a few things here and there, and I do love to teach. But there is a reason why I was a university professor and not a kindergarten teacher - toddlers were not allowed. It's hard to teach Differential Equations to those who doesn't know how to read. There was a basic knowledge census. However this is not something that can be easily applied to a public forum without encircling it with a set of rules (which said toddlers can't/don't read anyway) and heavy moderation, which is immediately considered a tyranny and causes all sorts of crying uncle..
The devil is in the details...
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm trying... However, like everybody, I only have so much mental bandwidth to spare, and with the amount of the newcomers (which I guess is good for Dgrin) it's inevitably getting spread thin...
My point of closing down a place that was dedicated for serious C&C..... Recently, since its getting nuked I see SCADS of effort in the C&C dept. But for how long can this last with the balance of shooters leaning hard on the earlier - mid stages of the learning curve?
Maybe if the WP was re-introduced with "Your Best Of The Best" shot in mind (even if its crap-villa), along with a limitation of entries per month (I'm thinking 1) - That way a shooter would REALLY think over about his submission AND take time in learning the advised corrections. Further more; If the shooter didn't come back within that allotted time frame (one month, per say) with a valid offering that demonstrated an eagerness to learn,,,,, NO MORE SUBMISSION FOR YOU! (spoken with a hard Russian accent ).
IMO something like that would be usefull as a learning tool for noobs too, without even participating in it - Via them lurking good examples of C&C and applying that to their own works (perhaps).... Maybe new members need to be a member for a spell before being granted access to submit in it????
Hey, folks, I've had to go through and deleted a four-letter word. We're a family forum and request that you use a little creativity to find other ways of expressing yourselves. Thanks!
Nikolai,
Maybe Dgrin can ask for a handful of dedicated members to host or moderate a specific critique section. One single location where people can go specifically to learn from those willing to share.
My point of closing down a place that was dedicated for serious C&C..... Recently, since its getting nuked I see SCADS of effort in the C&C dept. But for how long can this last with the balance of shooters leaning hard on the earlier - mid stages of the learning curve?
Maybe if the WP was re-introduced with "Your Best Of The Best" shot in mind (even if its crap-villa), along with a limitation of entries per month (I'm thinking 1) - That way a shooter would REALLY think over about his submission AND take time in learning the advised corrections. Further more; If the shooter didn't come back within that allotted time frame (one month, per say) with a valid offering that demonstrated an eagerness to learn,,,,, NO MORE SUBMISSION FOR YOU! (spoken with a hard Russian accent ).
IMO something like that would be usefull as a learning tool for noobs too, without even participating in it - Via them lurking good examples of C&C and applying that to their own works (perhaps).... Maybe new members need to be a member for a spell before being granted access to submit in it????
Just a lotta thinking out loud here...
It's kinda a vicious cricle... People who need the critique the most are typically the n00bs, who are not only unexperienced photographers, but often are also inexperienced netizens.. I'm pretty sure anybody with 5K+ posts and/or stellar list of published works (I can start listing names, but I don't want to upset anybody who I didn't mention; you all know what I mean) doesn't have a trouble of getting serious critique should s/he ask for it (imagine a question from Marc Muench, Yuri Pautov, or SeaStack just to name a few...:-). However, it's also typical that high level shooters are not too keen of asking questions in public and resort to PMs (or other non-public methods instead) at best.
Soo, what is needed is a place for any n00b/novice to get serious critique without exhaustnig a very limited number of people who is willing and can actually do it properly, and without drawing too much efforts from Mods Corps
Currently there are 2 sections that seem to work pretty well and yet offer a version of critiques. The Assignment and Challenges sections.
There is no way that each and every shot contained in these sections are the cream of the crop, yet they both offer members a chance at having that image critiqued.
Granted these are themed images, but the concept is the same.
Have a section that is opt in only. Offer members a chance to be critique advisers. (not moderators). These individuals volunteer to put up with whatever image is posted, be it portfolio quality or not, and offer whatever critique that they can come up with.
Members who do not want to be bothered with viewing the images in this section can use the options in the control panel to not see the section. No different than the go figure section.
Moderators would only have to view posts to limit language or images not proper for the forum as with any other section. No extra work on their part.
If enough members are not willing to offer to become critique advisers, the point will be proven and this thread can be locked and forgotten about.
This thread has certainly picked up a different kind of steam from it's start. Not attacking anyone here, just picking up on some spoken concepts. Nikolai says:
... And we immediately are back to step one, aka WP. A handful of volunteers buried under the flood of snapshots and pat-seekers....
See the thing is that the WP was shut down seemingly out of the blue without any of the complaints or conversation Nikolai refers to being known by those of us out here just simply using the WP, on this side of the curtain so to speak. Maybe there weren't as many of us going to the WP as often as there are myriads going to the other subject forums, but I daresay you would get at least as strong and emotional a reaction if Sports of Landscapes were closed down in the same way. (No problem mods, it's past and we are talking pretty much constructively again, so don't think I'm jabbing...)
Recently, since its getting nuked I see SCADS of effort in the C&C dept. But for how long can this last ....
This is really what we're going to find out, if the momemtum can be kept up, and also if it will be the right way. I see some former WPers have quietly moved on over, and certainly I have gone into other subforums, particularly to see and partake of Muench University a little bit. When I would post a project of mine for critique, I didn't necessarily want the expert of that type of image only to give their opinions. I would want some non-specialized (mind you I'm not saying non-expert) input on the image. I still don't see how we get that with a closed WP, as people will simply not have time to visit every room in Dgrin to see what's in there.
If there really is some new thing in the works, as was alluded to on the first page of this thread, I'm looking forward with curiosity and anticipation.
And on another note.. Nikolai... I wish I had a "Nikol" for every time you have used this smilie: Let's see, 15,909 posts times.. Come to think of it, let me make that dime.. I think of you and your left-brain every time I see it put to use, almost thinking that it needs to be relegated to the "more" page and called "Nikolai" so people won't misuse it in the future.:D Rest assured that I am thankful for your left brain every time I click on my little Star Exlorer icon to upload a horse show...
Currently there are 2 sections that seem to work pretty well and yet offer a version of critiques. The Assignment and Challenges sections.
There is no way that each and every shot contained in these sections are the cream of the crop, yet they both offer members a chance at having that image critiqued.
Granted these are themed images, but the concept is the same.
Have a section that is opt in only. Offer members a chance to be critique advisers. (not moderators). These individuals volunteer to put up with whatever image is posted, be it portfolio quality or not, and offer whatever critique that they can come up with.
Members who do not want to be bothered with viewing the images in this section can use the options in the control panel to not see the section. No different than the go figure section.
Moderators would only have to view posts to limit language or images not proper for the forum as with any other section. No extra work on their part.
If enough members are not willing to offer to become critique advisers, the point will be proven and this thread can be locked and forgotten about.
I hear ya, but... Wasn't it what the WP was? If not - what's the key difference? The plain reason WP was put to rest was a social version of ongoing DoS (Denial of Service) attack, when too many request hit a server with limited resources thus shutting it down...
And on another note.. Nikolai... I wish I had a "Nikol" for every time you have used this smilie: Let's see, 15,909 posts times.. Come to think of it, let me make that dime.. I think of you and your left-brain every time I see it put to use, almost thinking that it needs to be relegated to the "more" page and called "Nikolai" so people won't misuse it in the future.:D Rest assured that I am thankful for your left brain every time I click on my little Star Exlorer icon to upload a horse show...
I've been using more recently, which is kinda opposite...
Been a left-brainer, I apparently tend to either know something or don't , with no right-brain in-betweening
Sorry for the OT, carry on
I hear ya, but... Wasn't it what the WP was? If not - what's the key difference?
The key differences would be that the moderators would not have to do anything other than moderate as they do in any other section.
The other key difference would be that the members volunteering to offer the critiques would do so because they want a critique section.
If Dgrin had opened the WP up to all members who wanted to volunteer to keep the section open without the need for extra moderation prior to it closing this thread would not have been needed.
Once you get past the bickering in this thread, it is pretty evident that some would like a critique section of some form or another.
If those same people are willing to step up and volunteer their time to oversee (again NOT moderate) that section it should at least be considered.
It may very well lead to a total noob fest, and so be it. I personally believe that if someone takes the time to seek out advice, there will be some that believe they deserve it.
To go back to an earlier comment of yours, if it were not for the kindergarten teachers there would be no university students.
Now if Dgrin or enough members choose to limit the membership to those of a higher standard, well let's decide.
Should it be a popular vote of those worthy?
Should it be only published photographers?
Should it be only wedding photographers?
Should it be only pro photographers?
Should it be only those who earn 100% of their living with photography?
I am truly struggling with concept that so many are not willing to help others learn. I don't know if it is arrogance or insecurity or simply a lack of desire to help anyone other than oneself.
I am truly struggling with concept that so many are not willing to help others learn. I don't know if it is arrogance or insecurity or simply a lack of desire to help anyone other than oneself.
I'm not sure where you're getting that impression - but I know that one can't improve their university level education if all they're getting for C&C is grade-school material.
Save $5 off your first year's SmugMug image hosting with coupon code hccesQbqNBJbc
Now if Dgrin or enough members choose to limit the membership to those of a higher standard, well let's decide.
Should it be a popular vote of those worthy?
Should it be only published photographers?
Should it be only wedding photographers?
Should it be only pro photographers?
Should it be only those who earn 100% of their living with photography?
I am truly struggling with concept that so many are not willing to help others learn. I don't know if it is arrogance or insecurity or simply a lack of desire to help anyone other than oneself.
The issue I can see with that is you are potentially limiting your pool of potential members by those constraints. What's the ratio of professionals here who have sufficient free time to offer critique compared the the volume of people who ask for it? Who decides which of our esteemed fellows are "worthy"? Popular vote doesn't always put the most qualified individuals in charge. History has proven that time and time again. We have some people here who are very good non professional photographers, is there a reason they should be excluded just because they're not making a living off of their efforts? I'm not trying to bash your idea, I think it makes a lot of sense actually. I'd just hate to see us as a community bury a small number of people in a C/C landslide because we're only looking in certain areas for people willing to lend a hand. I think a larger pool of folks willing to do the C/C on a rotation (say, 2 or 3 a month) then rotate out for the next set would allow a good cross section of disciplines and points of view while preventing any individual or group from burning out on the critique process. If something comes in that a particular reviewer feels they would like to weigh in on off their rotation, why not? More eyes makes better end work. This way people aren't obligated to always be on the lookout for requests for C/C, just the folks who are on the hook for that month (and a month is arbitrary here)
There are posts that were made just today that are perfect examples of people choosing to not help versus simply moving on past the thread without saying anything.
If you go back and look through other threads, people have stated very clearly that some subjects will not be discussed publicly over some fear that the original poster may learn the answer to their question and come steal their weekend job from them.
but I know that one can't improve their university level education if all they're getting for C&C is grade-school material.
When did the C&C become limited to those of an university level? The point of C&C is to learn how to improve.
I work as a commercial product photographer. That is how I earn my living. However, I enjoy taking images of bugs, landscapes, and whatever else that grabs my attention.
It would be nice to improve my images in the areas that I am not currently working in.
My bug shots are certainly not at the highest level that they could be, and with someone more familiar in that area I could improve them. That is what C&C is all about.
If you go back and look, 80% or better of my posts are in the business section as this is my strong suit. I have no fear whatsoever of sharing what has helped me make my living with photography.
I have no problem answering the same old questions over and over again from a hundred different people.
The reason I do this is because I thought that a forum was a place for learning and sharing. If I simply wanted to show off images, I would be on flikr or myspace or whatever else people are using to simply show images.
There are posts that were made just today that are perfect examples of people choosing to not help versus simply moving on past the thread without saying anything.
which is their choice, as is the choice to help out.
If you go back and look through other threads, people have stated very clearly that some subjects will not be discussed publicly over some fear that the original poster may learn the answer to their question and come steal their weekend job from them.
Are you saying this fear is irrational? If the OP is from the same geographical area as the person considering answering the question, then I can see it. If not, then
When did theC&C become limited to those of an university level? The point of C&C is to learn how to improve.
I'm not saying it is. However, if someone can work at the "Univ" level, they'll soon tire of repeatedly commenting on "grade school" level material over time, particularly if doing so doesn't help them improve their own capabilities.
I work as a commercial product photographer. That is how I earn my living. However, I enjoy taking images of bugs, landscapes, and whatever else that grabs my attention.
It would be nice to improve my images in the areas that I am not currently working in.
My bug shots are certainly not at the highest level that they could be, and with someone more familiar in that area I could improve them. That is what C&C is all about.
I agree. And if there are people who're willing to share their perspectives make you a better bug-shooter, then great! If not, that's their choice as well.
If you go back and look, 80% or better of my posts are in the business section as this is my strong suit. I have no fear whatsoever of sharing what has helped me make my living with photography.
I have no problem answering the same old questions over and over again from a hundred different people.
which is excellent. I, however, have gotten tired of doing so on the 'post, particularly for the low-post count folks who never respond to the thread they created.
The reason I do this is because I thought that a forum was a place for learning and sharing. If I simply wanted to show off images, I would be on flikr or myspace or whatever else people are using to simply show images.
I don't think anyone contributing to this thread wants to go to a flikr/myspace format. But one has to face the realities that there has to be something 'in it' for the people offering the C&C as well as those on the receiving end in order for all this to work.
Save $5 off your first year's SmugMug image hosting with coupon code hccesQbqNBJbc
which is their choice, as is the choice to help out.
Not helping is a choice that I totally understand. Making a point in the thread of not helping is where I struggle with the logic. What is the point of someone adding to a thread simply to tell the person they are not willing to help?
Are you saying this fear is irrational? If the OP is from the same geographical area as the person considering answering the question, then I can see it. If not, then
I am so busy these days that rarely do I shoot alone. I refer work to other photographers in my area and on this forum every week. I am also building a rotating workshop in my area to help others learn the business.
If someone takes my business away from me, it means that I was not taking care of the client properly. (this is my opinion, so no flames please)
I personally do not fear competition. Until someone knows what I know, knows who I know, and knows who knows me, what is the fear?
My clients do not shop price. They shop results.
Maybe I am unique or just the luckiest person in California, but I have been truly blessed in the fact that I am able to earn a darn good living taking pictures.
I would not be here today if others had chosen not to offer advice along the way.
I am 100% positive that I had asked the same stupid questions as thousands before me.
I am also 100% positive that I will continue to help anyone who asks that I am able.
I do not pretend to be the greatest photographer.
I don't pretend to be the best photographer in this thread.
What I am, is willing to help anyone that takes the time to ask.
Their time and question is no less valuable than the pro working down the street. It is this logic that has built my client base.
As to whether the original poster ever comes back or not has no bearing on the ability for the answer to help someone.
...there has to be something 'in it' for the people offering the C&C as well as those on the receiving end in order for all this to work.
As a former university professor I can honestly say that seeing your student evolving is a great payback. Often you can start learning from such a student yourself, so it's a win-win.
The problem is in ratio and in allotted time. If I want to teach one person properly, I can do that, but I may spend my entire life doing that. Heck, that's what I do with my kids. :-) Naturally I the broader the audience is, the less amount of knowledge can be transferred successfully. The centuries of experience led into the current educational system, where one must complete a certain rite of passage (exam) to get to the next level.
Here, OTOH, we're dealing with a flat public forum, where it's not possible to tell a weed from a grain...
While I agree with most of your other points, here's one I would like to elaborate:
...
As a former university professor I can honestly say that seeing your student evolving is a great payback. Often you can start learning from such a student yourself, so it's a win-win.
Exactly! That's one of the things I got from C&C'ing posts, and why I did what I did.
Save $5 off your first year's SmugMug image hosting with coupon code hccesQbqNBJbc
Not helping is a choice that I totally understand. Making a point in the thread of not helping is where I struggle with the logic. What is the point of someone adding to a thread simply to tell the person they are not willing to help?
Please let me know where you've seen this behavior. Feel free to send me a link in a PM
It's kinda a vicious cricle... People who need the critique the most are typically the n00bs, who are not only unexperienced photographers, but often are also inexperienced netizens.. I'm pretty sure anybody with 5K+ posts and/or stellar list of published works (I can start listing names, but I don't want to upset anybody who I didn't mention; you all know what I mean) doesn't have a trouble of getting serious critique should s/he ask for it (imagine a question from Marc Muench, Yuri Pautov, or SeaStack just to name a few...:-). However, it's also typical that high level shooters are not too keen of asking questions in public and resort to PMs (or other non-public methods instead) at best.
Soo, what is needed is a place for any n00b/novice to get serious critique without exhaustnig a very limited number of people who is willing and can actually do it properly, and without drawing too much efforts from Mods Corps
How to achieve that? I realy , but I'm all
Nik -
You've raised some very good points in your posts, including that excellent list of self-assessment-language-to-attract-critique, and also pointing out that currently there is a strong influx of n00bs, making it harder for those with the knowledge to respond to everything (even I, as a semi-n00b who's only been seriously posting here for about a year, sees a big turnover recently). That said, what better way to pay it forward? I think that while it isn't realistic to expect any one poster to be "resident teacher", it is helpful to the community when people with a specific area of expertise step up to the plate and respond, even to the snap-shot-y n00bs. We were all there once, weren't we? (some of us feel like we're still there much of the time!)
I will say that I have always been amazed at how many people (yourself included) have been generous enough to guide my efforts as I've progressed from glorified snapshot, through first efforts with on-camera flash and into the studio and beyond. I've had AWESOMELY helpful responses to all of my shoots and requests. But then I read over your list, Nik, and thought, "Huh - that's exactly how I presented my posts requesting C&C". This is not to toot my own horn (I suspect my Inner Teacher came out when I was asking for responses, instinctively framing the posts/questions the way I would want them presented to me ), but simply to say that when presented right, those requests ARE met, and people do respond, often in breathtaking (and highly educational) detail.
That said, I've been around the net for a good many years and thus had the experience to lurk and get the feel of the place before I jumped in. Also - as I have posted many times in different areas of dgrin - I'm used to artistic constructive criticism and when I say, "Bring it on", I mean it; as a teacher, I know that many people, despite what they may say, really don't grasp that a negative comment is not failure, but the road to improvement. Even when they say, "I want to get better", that actually doesn't mean they accept that growing - in any discipline, but particularly artistic ones - means changing, letting go of prior ideas, and realising that true wisdom starts when you realise you actually know nothing at all. THAT's when learning begins (along with letting go of "perfect" and being happier with "better than last time, continually growing and continually excelling". My point being (I think - I'm starting to ramble... ) that when you really are open to C&C, it shows, and people respond.
Lastly, while the hamburger approach is a good one - people always take negative comments better when they feel they've done something else successfully - I would submit that no criticism is truly constructive unless it offers possible solutions. No, not every criticism can come with the fix, but SUGGESTIONS for directions to go are the best ever. Seriously, over my performing years the BEST comments were along the lines of, "That seriously sucked, but stay after rehearsal 15 minutes and we'll fix it". Upsetting? No way - not only identifying a problem, but willing to work with me on how to fix it. That's the good stuff
So, since all parties seem to agree that good critiquing is hard work and many people aren't always prepared to receive it... would a sticky along the lines of "how to give and receive constructive criticism" within each forum perhaps be a goodness? Just a thought.
Comments
Thanks Nik for taking the time to put your thoughts into words.
I've cut/copy/pasted the above text and saved it for use the next time I'm seeking critique. Again, thanks....it probably seemed very simple and logical to you.....but sometime a newbie just needs to be clued in. Again, THANKS!
My Photos - Powered by SmugMug!
FWIW, I have seen forums where each genre also had its own critique thread and it was awful. It really cheapened the often excellent feedback that we have in those areas on Dgrin....and reserved it for ONLY the critique areas.
I too am glad that this thread has rolled over into something constructive and positive. Im only a few weeks "in" as a moderator, and was really taken aback by some of the harsher comments directed at other moderators...and also to all of us in general. THAT, was tragic.
I volunteer my time with the intent of helping to keep Dgrin the best photographer friendly board on the web.......period.<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >
Jeff
-Need help with Dgrin?; Wedding Photography Resources
-My Website - Blog - Tips for Senior Portraiture
IMHO, that's OK.... Learning how "to take it" is just part of the process. It *shouldn't* be toooo hard for Mod's to keep a handle on things like this, if they happen to go over-board (?). This person will either learn or quit trying - Hopefully, he/she will learn.
I too saw that thread earlier and didn't comment, simply because all that was posted, was a pic with no rationale for it being there.... I'm not The Amazing Kreskin!
Yet you still gave valuable information ???? I truly do not understand why this is becoming so difficult. You have given plenty of advice without the poster describing every possible aspect of the image before. Here is your response to that thread you posted.
More often than not I have read many posts from you giving some form of advice or critique. Recently that seems to have changed and you are much shorter with the person asking for advice.
A very common theme happening here on Dgrin.
We all get a little tired of answering the same questions over and over again, and we all get tired of answering questions that should be common sense, but come on..
I wish someone would someone would take 5 minutes of their life and explain the point of being on a forum if it isn't for sharing and learning?
Website
The first being the original intent of talking about the whipping post and whether it has value.
The second, more recently is sort of diverging into "what makes a good critique" and "what should someone looking for a critique be prepared to offer when asking?"
Should there be an additional discussion opened about that in parallel?
Maybe a critiquing FAQ? I know that can end up being a very, very deep hole...
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Nikolai,
You have a growing expertise that many viewers of this forum can only wish for. Whether you like it or not, some are purposely going to look to you for answers so that they can grow their knowledge.
I would hope that you do not limit this sharing to the technique section. I only work with models once a month or so in my area of work, and when I do, I look back at your work and advice to further my images for my clients.
Your work in the technique section is exactly what is needed in a critique section. A place where those who choose can go to get the advice that is needed to improve.
Maybe Dgrin can ask for a handful of dedicated members to host or moderate a specific critique section. One single location where people can go specifically to learn from those willing to share.
Website
Yes, I do know a few things here and there, and I do love to teach. But there is a reason why I was a university professor and not a kindergarten teacher - toddlers were not allowed. It's hard to teach Differential Equations to those who doesn't know how to read. There was a basic knowledge census. However this is not something that can be easily applied to a public forum without encircling it with a set of rules (which said toddlers can't/don't read anyway) and heavy moderation, which is immediately considered a tyranny and causes all sorts of crying uncle..
The devil is in the details...
My point of closing down a place that was dedicated for serious C&C..... Recently, since its getting nuked I see SCADS of effort in the C&C dept. But for how long can this last with the balance of shooters leaning hard on the earlier - mid stages of the learning curve?
Maybe if the WP was re-introduced with "Your Best Of The Best" shot in mind (even if its crap-villa), along with a limitation of entries per month (I'm thinking 1) - That way a shooter would REALLY think over about his submission AND take time in learning the advised corrections. Further more; If the shooter didn't come back within that allotted time frame (one month, per say) with a valid offering that demonstrated an eagerness to learn,,,,, NO MORE SUBMISSION FOR YOU! (spoken with a hard Russian accent
IMO something like that would be usefull as a learning tool for noobs too, without even participating in it - Via them lurking good examples of C&C and applying that to their own works (perhaps).... Maybe new members need to be a member for a spell before being granted access to submit in it????
Just a lotta thinking out loud here...
My appologies....
Good idea IMO.
It's kinda a vicious cricle... People who need the critique the most are typically the n00bs, who are not only unexperienced photographers, but often are also inexperienced netizens.. I'm pretty sure anybody with 5K+ posts and/or stellar list of published works (I can start listing names, but I don't want to upset anybody who I didn't mention; you all know what I mean) doesn't have a trouble of getting serious critique should s/he ask for it (imagine a question from Marc Muench, Yuri Pautov, or SeaStack just to name a few...:-). However, it's also typical that high level shooters are not too keen of asking questions in public and resort to PMs (or other non-public methods instead) at best.
Soo, what is needed is a place for any n00b/novice to get serious critique without exhaustnig a very limited number of people who is willing and can actually do it properly, and without drawing too much efforts from Mods Corps
How to achieve that? I realy
There is no way that each and every shot contained in these sections are the cream of the crop, yet they both offer members a chance at having that image critiqued.
Granted these are themed images, but the concept is the same.
Have a section that is opt in only. Offer members a chance to be critique advisers. (not moderators). These individuals volunteer to put up with whatever image is posted, be it portfolio quality or not, and offer whatever critique that they can come up with.
Members who do not want to be bothered with viewing the images in this section can use the options in the control panel to not see the section. No different than the go figure section.
Moderators would only have to view posts to limit language or images not proper for the forum as with any other section. No extra work on their part.
If enough members are not willing to offer to become critique advisers, the point will be proven and this thread can be locked and forgotten about.
Website
You got that right, Man!
See the thing is that the WP was shut down seemingly out of the blue without any of the complaints or conversation Nikolai refers to being known by those of us out here just simply using the WP, on this side of the curtain so to speak. Maybe there weren't as many of us going to the WP as often as there are myriads going to the other subject forums, but I daresay you would get at least as strong and emotional a reaction if Sports of Landscapes were closed down in the same way. (No problem mods, it's past and we are talking pretty much constructively again, so don't think I'm jabbing...)
This is really what we're going to find out, if the momemtum can be kept up, and also if it will be the right way. I see some former WPers have quietly moved on over, and certainly I have gone into other subforums, particularly to see and partake of Muench University a little bit. When I would post a project of mine for critique, I didn't necessarily want the expert of that type of image only to give their opinions. I would want some non-specialized (mind you I'm not saying non-expert) input on the image. I still don't see how we get that with a closed WP, as people will simply not have time to visit every room in Dgrin to see what's in there.
If there really is some new thing in the works, as was alluded to on the first page of this thread, I'm looking forward with curiosity and anticipation.
And on another note.. Nikolai... I wish I had a "Nikol" for every time you have used this smilie:
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
I've been using more
Been a left-brainer, I apparently tend to either know something
Sorry for the OT, carry on
The key differences would be that the moderators would not have to do anything other than moderate as they do in any other section.
The other key difference would be that the members volunteering to offer the critiques would do so because they want a critique section.
If Dgrin had opened the WP up to all members who wanted to volunteer to keep the section open without the need for extra moderation prior to it closing this thread would not have been needed.
Once you get past the bickering in this thread, it is pretty evident that some would like a critique section of some form or another.
If those same people are willing to step up and volunteer their time to oversee (again NOT moderate) that section it should at least be considered.
It may very well lead to a total noob fest, and so be it. I personally believe that if someone takes the time to seek out advice, there will be some that believe they deserve it.
To go back to an earlier comment of yours, if it were not for the kindergarten teachers there would be no university students.
Now if Dgrin or enough members choose to limit the membership to those of a higher standard, well let's decide.
Should it be a popular vote of those worthy?
Should it be only published photographers?
Should it be only wedding photographers?
Should it be only pro photographers?
Should it be only those who earn 100% of their living with photography?
I am truly struggling with concept that so many are not willing to help others learn. I don't know if it is arrogance or insecurity or simply a lack of desire to help anyone other than oneself.
Website
There are posts that were made just today that are perfect examples of people choosing to not help versus simply moving on past the thread without saying anything.
If you go back and look through other threads, people have stated very clearly that some subjects will not be discussed publicly over some fear that the original poster may learn the answer to their question and come steal their weekend job from them.
When did the C&C become limited to those of an university level? The point of C&C is to learn how to improve.
I work as a commercial product photographer. That is how I earn my living. However, I enjoy taking images of bugs, landscapes, and whatever else that grabs my attention.
It would be nice to improve my images in the areas that I am not currently working in.
My bug shots are certainly not at the highest level that they could be, and with someone more familiar in that area I could improve them. That is what C&C is all about.
If you go back and look, 80% or better of my posts are in the business section as this is my strong suit. I have no fear whatsoever of sharing what has helped me make my living with photography.
I have no problem answering the same old questions over and over again from a hundred different people.
The reason I do this is because I thought that a forum was a place for learning and sharing. If I simply wanted to show off images, I would be on flikr or myspace or whatever else people are using to simply show images.
Website
I was trying to prove a point, not offer a suggestion to limit anyone. My smart alack approach did not come off as well as I had intended, sorry.
My point was that noobs deserve the same as those who make a living with photography. We could all stand to learn and grow.
Website
Emphatically agree.
I agree. And if there are people who're willing to share their perspectives make you a better bug-shooter, then great! If not, that's their choice as well.
which is excellent. I, however, have gotten tired of doing so on the 'post, particularly for the low-post count folks who never respond to the thread they created.
I don't think anyone contributing to this thread wants to go to a flikr/myspace format. But one has to face the realities that there has to be something 'in it' for the people offering the C&C as well as those on the receiving end in order for all this to work.
Not helping is a choice that I totally understand. Making a point in the thread of not helping is where I struggle with the logic. What is the point of someone adding to a thread simply to tell the person they are not willing to help?
I am so busy these days that rarely do I shoot alone. I refer work to other photographers in my area and on this forum every week. I am also building a rotating workshop in my area to help others learn the business.
If someone takes my business away from me, it means that I was not taking care of the client properly. (this is my opinion, so no flames please)
I personally do not fear competition. Until someone knows what I know, knows who I know, and knows who knows me, what is the fear?
My clients do not shop price. They shop results.
Maybe I am unique or just the luckiest person in California, but I have been truly blessed in the fact that I am able to earn a darn good living taking pictures.
I would not be here today if others had chosen not to offer advice along the way.
I am 100% positive that I had asked the same stupid questions as thousands before me.
I am also 100% positive that I will continue to help anyone who asks that I am able.
I do not pretend to be the greatest photographer.
I don't pretend to be the best photographer in this thread.
What I am, is willing to help anyone that takes the time to ask.
Their time and question is no less valuable than the pro working down the street. It is this logic that has built my client base.
As to whether the original poster ever comes back or not has no bearing on the ability for the answer to help someone.
Website
The problem is in ratio and in allotted time. If I want to teach one person properly, I can do that, but I may spend my entire life doing that. Heck, that's what I do with my kids. :-) Naturally I the broader the audience is, the less amount of knowledge can be transferred successfully. The centuries of experience led into the current educational system, where one must complete a certain rite of passage (exam) to get to the next level.
Here, OTOH, we're dealing with a flat public forum, where it's not possible to tell a weed from a grain...
Please let me know where you've seen this behavior. Feel free to send me a link in a PM
.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Nik -
You've raised some very good points in your posts, including that excellent list of self-assessment-language-to-attract-critique, and also pointing out that currently there is a strong influx of n00bs, making it harder for those with the knowledge to respond to everything (even I, as a semi-n00b who's only been seriously posting here for about a year, sees a big turnover recently). That said, what better way to pay it forward? I think that while it isn't realistic to expect any one poster to be "resident teacher", it is helpful to the community when people with a specific area of expertise step up to the plate and respond, even to the snap-shot-y n00bs. We were all there once, weren't we? (some of us feel like we're still there much of the time!)
I will say that I have always been amazed at how many people (yourself included) have been generous enough to guide my efforts as I've progressed from glorified snapshot, through first efforts with on-camera flash and into the studio and beyond. I've had AWESOMELY helpful responses to all of my shoots and requests. But then I read over your list, Nik, and thought, "Huh - that's exactly how I presented my posts requesting C&C". This is not to toot my own horn (I suspect my Inner Teacher came out when I was asking for responses, instinctively framing the posts/questions the way I would want them presented to me
That said, I've been around the net for a good many years and thus had the experience to lurk and get the feel of the place before I jumped in. Also - as I have posted many times in different areas of dgrin - I'm used to artistic constructive criticism and when I say, "Bring it on", I mean it; as a teacher, I know that many people, despite what they may say, really don't grasp that a negative comment is not failure, but the road to improvement. Even when they say, "I want to get better", that actually doesn't mean they accept that growing - in any discipline, but particularly artistic ones - means changing, letting go of prior ideas, and realising that true wisdom starts when you realise you actually know nothing at all. THAT's when learning begins (along with letting go of "perfect" and being happier with "better than last time, continually growing and continually excelling". My point being (I think - I'm starting to ramble...
Lastly, while the hamburger approach is a good one - people always take negative comments better when they feel they've done something else successfully - I would submit that no criticism is truly constructive unless it offers possible solutions. No, not every criticism can come with the fix, but SUGGESTIONS for directions to go are the best ever. Seriously, over my performing years the BEST comments were along the lines of, "That seriously sucked, but stay after rehearsal 15 minutes and we'll fix it". Upsetting? No way - not only identifying a problem, but willing to work with me on how to fix it. That's the good stuff
So, since all parties seem to agree that good critiquing is hard work and many people aren't always prepared to receive it... would a sticky along the lines of "how to give and receive constructive criticism" within each forum perhaps be a goodness? Just a thought.