THIS IS NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR. IT IS MEANT FOR EVERYONE WHO IS A MEMBER OF DGRIN.
I've been following this thread and have been trying to keep my mouth shut, but I think enough is enough. As far as I can tell this is a free and open site. No where on this site have I seen anything set up to make money. Everyone here is free to come and go as they please. You come here to try and learn some new things and maybe (hopefully) help someone else out along the way. The MODS here are unpaid volunteers and IMO doing the best that they can. Sure, sometimes they might do something that could have been handled a little better but who of us here can say that they have NEVER done something that in hindsight could have been done in a better way. If you answer that last question with "Well, I haven't", fine step up to the plate, become a MOD and show us how its done. These people are doing a job that frankly I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and they VOLUNTEERED to do it. If you see something that is not working or might be done in a better way bring it up for discussion but don't get bent out of shape if things don't go the way you want them. If you still have serious problems with this place there are plenty of other sites on the web that you can go to. It doesn't do any good to yell and scream about something unless you do it in a calm and rational manner and offer up some suggestions of your own. Everyone of us here has a responsiblity to do what we can to make this forum the best that it can be. It is a community and if you are here you are a member of that community. Just like where you live, ugly neighbors bring down the whole neighborhood. Either do your part or go away. The rest of us can do just fine without you.
Now, as far as the WP. I did use it but I did so knowing full well (and wanting) direct and honest opinion. This is what I got and was apreciative of it. However, the last time was a little harsh in the "tone of voice". I'm not sure why it was but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. When I go to the WP I do so because I know that the image is lacking in some way but just can't figure out what it is. I'm there because I honestly want to improve it. I'm not looking for "Ooh nice shot, but the color seems a little off". I hope that we can find a way to bring back the WP in some form or other. Hopefully similar to the way it was with a slightly more relaxed structure. A place where anyone in there knows that if you post there it is because you want honest CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing. Also that anyone can give an opinion but that you don't critique someone else's photo unless you are able to explain how to fix whatever it is the you think is not working. I'm not sure right now how we are going to solve this delimma that we are having but once we do I will do whatever I can to make sure that it work.
Thanks, Miguel for taking the time to give us such valuable feedback.
You are welcome David.
EDIT: I just noticed that you're already getting some great feedback outside of the WP!
The demise of the Whipping Post, though saddening, is not a religious issue to me. I'll attempt to get straight critique where I can, and if it works then that's evidence for others.
The WP was not set up for you to be critiqued by pros, and the vast majority of crits there were by amateurs, many of whom were beginners.
I take your meaning to be unqualified not amateur. An amateur may be more qualified than someone who merely gets paid. (I've seen lots of wedding images that support that):D
I take your meaning to be unqualified not amateur. An amateur may be more qualified than someone who merely gets paid. (I've seen lots of wedding images that support that):D
Why would you take that to be my meaning? That's not at all what I meant at all. And I totally agree with you on the last part.
<DL><DT class=hwrd>Main Entry: <DD class=hwrd>am·a·teur </DD><DT class=pron>Pronunciation: <DD class=pron>\ˈa-mə-(ˌ)tər, -ˌtu̇r, -ˌtyu̇r, -ˌchu̇r, -chər\ </DD><DT class=func>Function: <DD class=func>noun </DD><DT class=ety>Etymology: <DD class=ety>French, from Latin amator lover, from amare to love </DD><DT class=date>Date: <DD class=date>1784 </DD></DL>1 :devotee, admirer 2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession 3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science
— amateur adjective
— am·a·teur·ish \ˌa-mə-ˈtər-ish, -ˈt(y)u̇r-, -ˈchu̇r-, -ˈchər-\ adjective
— am·a·teur·ish·ly adverb
— am·a·teur·ish·ness noun
— am·a·teur·ism \ˈa-mə-ˌtər-ˌi-zəm, -ˌt(y)u̇r-, -ˌchu̇r-, -ˌchər-; -ˌtə-ˌri-, -ˌchə-ˌri-\ noun synonymsamateur, dilettante, dabbler, tyro mean a person who follows a pursuit without attaining proficiency or professional status. amateur often applies to one practicing an art without mastery of its essentials <a painting obviously done by an amateur>; in sports it may also suggest not so much lack of skill but avoidance of direct remuneration <remained an amateur despite lucrative offers>. dilettante may apply to the lover of an art rather than its skilled practitioner but usually implies elegant trifling in the arts and an absence of serious commitment <had no patience for dilettantes>. dabbler suggests desultory habits of work and lack of persistence <a dabbler who started novels but never finished them>. tyro implies inexperience often combined with audacity with resulting crudeness or blundering <shows talent but is still a mere tyro>.
I believe that i was one of the ones who used the WP rightly,
well, No - I can find WP posts of yours in which you clearly state the image is "not your best"
so now where do I get critiqued by pros?
any one of 12 forums in which all the very same people participate
I totally agree with Art Scott.
that's unfortunate
You GUYS have taken away an excellent learning center for many people.
the WP was a hard core critique forum not a classroom. its intent was to provide a place in which you could submit your best "portfolio quality" work for feedback, not lessons. in fact part of the original introduction likened it to going on a job interview. it was a place where you could hone your skills for making a presentation to someone like an art director. if you walked into my office and showed me work with the disclaimer "it's not my best" - I'd say goodbye very quickly
The only spot that has better shot is DGrin Challenges.
really? I think some of our participants in weddings, landscapes, sports, people, etc., would strongly disagree
I think that you GUYS should re-open the WP, and make it a non- profitable organization!
what the heck are you talking about?NOBODY was profiting from the WP or any part of dgrin
Get pros in there to critique, that you still have a learning center.
again, the WP was not a school.
I think that if you have some pros critiquing in there, you could eliminate moderating it.
effective and meaningful critique can be proffered by people who are not pros and that has nothing to do with the issue of moderating the forum
I think that the main problem is that the MODS wanted it to bring in pros so that they, of course, could get more money.
OK so you actually do not know what you're talking about.
Let me add something else. Change the name, don't use the WHIPPING POST, call it.....The Learning Center. You want to attract more business, that will do it for you my friends.
AGAIN. it was never a learning center. we have 12 other forums, including "Technique" for that sort of interaction with all of our members, pro and amateur alike. But I suppose every time anything new is to be introduced we could seek a consensus of our 30,000 + members. That should work REAL well.
.
so much negativity in this thread and most directed in the wrong way.
does anyone give a hoot that the reason "moderation" was introduced originally was because people were complaining about the poor quality of images posted and comments made.
none of that stopped when moderation began, it just got filtered out before it hit the board at a significant cost to David's time, and little doubt his patience, so everyone could enjoy a more concise, meaningful experience.
with so many topic forums and active members here at dgrin, with many professional photographers participating and giving of their time and expertise - all the non-pro members willing to share, ask questions, offer opinions - the AIRS - Mark and BD and of course Jeff in Weddings, there is little doubt everyone won't continue to get the feedback they seek.
it has been said before - let's get into a habit of including some indication of the type of C&C we seek when we post images. we can work on what that "code" might be but it isn't difficult to ward off the "nice shot" comments when you're really looking for more in depth critique.
HahaI guess I owe the MODS an apology for stating my impression so strait forwardly....Haha, which makes me think of THIS, READ MY LIPS, I AM SORRY FOR MISINTERPRETING YOU GUYSivar
I just have to put this in....you GUYS are a bit contradictory.
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
It's hard for me to express how much this saddens me.
The mods here are volunteers doing their best to make this a fun, lively and informative forum.
We are not censors. We are not out to make a buck. Or any of the other things we've been accused of here.
Unfounded wild conjecture like this does nothing but damage your forum.
David,
This thread has stunned me. The worst possible thing that could happen out of this is you decide that based upon a few ungrateful people who some how think you "owe" them something, you decide to stop volunteering your time and supporting the rest of us.
While I have been more of a lurker than participant, I have always appreciated your perspective- your professionalism and willingness to share your expertise. In spite of what some others will say, I have found you to show the utmost respect for the posters, and you provide thoughtful insight to keep everything on track.
This thread has stunned me. The worst possible thing that could happen out of this is you decide that based upon a few ungrateful people who some how think you "owe" them something, you decide to stop volunteering your time and supporting the rest of us.
While I have been more of a lurker than participant, I have always appreciated your perspective- your professionalism and willingness to share your expertise. In spite of what some others will say, I have found you to show the utmost respect for the posters, and you provide thoughtful insight to keep everything on track.
Ok, so granted I'm still bearing the "new kid shine" over here, but I'd like to forward a couple of suggestions.
I like the idea of a separate area for C&C, whether it's a redesigned WP or an opt-in subforum in the regular forums. In some form, this needs to continue to be available, and I don't think just dropping in a "C&C requested" type subject tag is sufficient.
There has been some valid discussion in this thread from people who are concerned about looking for C/C and having their posts buried in the background noise of the general shots forums. I've seen it happen many times already, and I'm only a month old as a member.
Amateur or professional, everyone can benefit from a thorough look at their work on occasion. For people who are still developing their eye and learning how to move from taking snapshots to taking photographs, the wisdom and experience of the professionals (and non professionals as well) here is invaluable. For those same professionals, having the ability to seek input from their peers can help them keep their skills sharp and prevent stagnation, or perhaps provide them some critical feedback as they expand their view to include new techniques or subjects for themselves.
So, the suggestions: (either/or)
1. Reopen the whipping post. Make it opt-in and have a lengthy disclaimer on the acceptance page covering things like "don't post cell phone camera shots or you will go down in flames" "be prepared for Simon Cowell to critique your work and be pleasantly surprised if you're not crying when it's all over", etc... Yes, I'm making light of this a little bit to get the point across. If you only want members posting the cream of their crop, make sure that everyone who knocks on the door knows that. if they're feeling gutsy enough after that to move forward, then they're prepared to take their licks if that's what ends up happening. If you still feel the need for a mod to review initial posts then do so, but let the folks who are offering the critiques post their opinions without moderation time delay. Once it's gets in the door, it's fair game.
2. Set aside an area in each of the shots forums specifically dedicated to c&c. Move anything that isn't c&c back out to the parent and vice-versa. Initially it will be more legwork, but once people get the feel for it you'll only have to handle the occasional person who doesn't bother/know how to read the forum readmes/stickies.
IM(Humble)OP
That is the best suggestion that I have seen! I sincerely hope the MODS and SMUGMUG will take it into consideration at least.
What sixdaemonbag says is true, it will take more legwork, at least at the beginning, but think about how many people would be able to benefit from it. I think it will really help DGrin to become bigger and more popular, it already is one of a kind out there, and I think that this will only make it better.
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
If my memory serves, the WP was conceived in response to people who were very sensitive to blunt honest critique. Among other things, it was meant as a place where that would be the norm.
Meanwhile, some of the forums have grown flabby. Snapshots get tons of raves.
Blunt honest critique is a gift. I always try to appreciate it and consider it carefully. I'll be very glad if closing the WP means that more of this goes on all over dgrin.
The worst response a picture can get is dishonest praise or no response. Honest critique is the best.
If my memory serves, the WP was conceived in response to people who were very sensitive to blunt honest critique. Among other things, it was meant as a place where that would be the norm.
Meanwhile, some of the forums have grown flabby. Snapshots get tons of raves.
Blunt honest critique is a gift. I always try to appreciate it and consider it carefully. I'll be very glad if closing the WP means that more of this goes on all over dgrin.
The worst response a picture can get is dishonest praise or no response. Honest critique is the best.
The worst response a picture can get is dishonest praise or no response. Honest critique is the best.
EXACTLY!
IMO if a person seeks C&C and posts "crap", he/she should be told so, along with advice on improvements, without worry of hurting feelings. PC ramble often accounts for more of the post than the critique itself in the forums. Surely if someone seeks truth, then that person can handle the outcome of it (or should be expected).... A crap photo could be the shooters 'best' at the time of shooting and even the best of the best could be changed to become 'better'.
A non reply offers no value. All it encourages is non-growth and repeated mistakes.... BUT!!!! expecting this type of review in the "regular" forums could prove tasking (me thinks) for fellas that hold knowledgeable opinions (read; tons of sifting).
nik..... (or any fellow member ftm) If you should EVER see crap in my works, PLEASE leave me a little 4 lettered reply: C.R.A.P.
Crap????
People these days are to easily offended, so most of the critiquers are afraid to critique! It's like, " how dare you say something bad about my picture", you know what I mean? Of course it would be great if every body wasn't that way, but.....not saying that every body is of course.....
When ever I post a picture, I don't want people to say that it is good, when it in fact has defects! When I post, I want to know what is good AND bad about my picture! And if I ever post anything crappy, tell me (D'Buggs), but also tell me why.
:ivar
If you work at something hard enough, you WILL achieve your goal. "Me"
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
People these days are to easily offended, so most of the critiquers are afraid to critique! It's like, " how dare you say something bad about my picture", you know what I mean? Of course it would be great if every body wasn't that way, but.....not saying that every body is of course.....
When ever I post a picture, I don't want people to say that it is good, when it in fact has defects! When I post, I want to know what is good AND mad about my picture! And if I ever post anything crappy, tell me (D'Buggs), but also tell me why.
:ivar
I've long been a proponent of the hamburger method, where the criticism is flanked by two compliments.
Worst case is an open faced sandwich. if you can only think of one nice thing to say
i.e.
Nice try, but..... It's crap
PERFECT! Simple and to the point. Takes no time to type and encourages one to do better and be more critical. Whereas grasshoppers just chirp while leading the poster in all sorts of undirectional, directions.
One thing that would defintely moved *me* into giving a post some time and possibly a feedback is if the OP would start with one.
Imagine a post which includes the following:
clear title
description of idea
tactical goals that were set to reach that idea
equipment used
environmental circumstances
SOOC frame
post-processing used (schematically at least)
final image
reasoning of what worked and what not
optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
For me, such a post would clearly show that:
this most likely is NOT a snapshot
OP is willing to spend time to work on the image as opposed to throwing in a (few dozen of) random frame(s) and asking "what's wrong with it/them" (the correct question in fact would be "what's wrong with OP" ;-)
OP is capable of analyzing his/her own work and hence most likely capable of accepting the feedback
Distilling this down, it sounds like your suggesting the OP (original poster), put as much or more work into the post as they are expecting back in feedback.
This seems like both a fair and reasonable trade, since quality critiquing is time consuming and employs a fair amount of thought if done correctly.
~
I must say David the hamburger method of critiquing is a great way of describing how it should be done, I don't think I had ever heard it put that way before. Can I have my hamburger with extra pickles?
One thing that would defintely moved *me* into giving a post some time and possibly a feedback is if the OP would start with one.
Imagine a post which includes the following:
clear title
description of idea
tactical goals that were set to reach that idea
equipment used
environmental circumstances
SOOC frame
post-processing used (schematically at least)
final image
reasoning of what worked and what not
optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
I'd support a requirement to post extra content along with the picture, but I wouldn't want too much included as that would / could influence other people's responses, and the OP wouldn't get a "fresh & clean" impression from the readership.
Alternatively, if the "intent" content was written with the same color as the background - that could work as well. (I was going to put something in as a demonstration, but there doesn't seem to be a way to change letter colors with this editor.)
Save $5 off your first year's SmugMug image hosting with coupon code hccesQbqNBJbc
Distilling this down, it sounds like your suggesting the OP (original poster), put as much or more work into the post as they are expecting back in feedback.
This seems like both a fair and reasonable trade, since quality critiquing is time consuming and employs a fair amount of thought if done correctly.
Pretty much, yes. Thanks for distilling!
I must say David the hamburger method of critiquing is a great way of describing how it should be done, I don't think I had ever heard it put that way before. Can I have my hamburger with extra pickles?
That's a Western way. In Russia one would get an open face shit-sandwich ("your work is crap and you are an imbecile")
I think this thread is finally headed in a positive direction. Here are some of the suggestions that I tend to agree with. I really hope that we can come together and work this thing out. (In fact, I'm confident that we will.)
_____________________________________
A place where anyone in there knows that if you post there it is because you want honest CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing. Also that anyone can give an opinion but that you don't critique someone else's photo unless you are able to explain how to fix whatever it is that you think is not working.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Set aside an area in each of the shots forums specifically dedicated to c&c. Move anything that isn't c&c back out to the parent and vice-versa. Initially it will be more legwork, but once people get the feel for it you'll only have to handle the occasional person who doesn't bother/know how to read the forum readmes/stickies.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Imagine a post which includes the following: <o:p></o:p>
clear title <o:p></o:p>
description of idea <o:p></o:p>
tactical goals that were set to reach that idea <o:p></o:p>
equipment used <o:p></o:p>
environmental circumstances <o:p></o:p>
SOOC frame <o:p></o:p>
post-processing used (schematically at least) <o:p></o:p>
final image <o:p></o:p>
reasoning of what worked and what not <o:p></o:p>
optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
___________________________________________ Let's keep working on this. — Kevin
Example of what happens when the suggested prerequisites are not met http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=138586
* purposefully cryptic title
* no clear idea/goal
* no description whatsoever
* no apparent ability to handle the "crapdwich" (or even a "[MOD expletive deleted]burger" ;-)
etc.
Comments
I've been following this thread and have been trying to keep my mouth shut, but I think enough is enough. As far as I can tell this is a free and open site. No where on this site have I seen anything set up to make money. Everyone here is free to come and go as they please. You come here to try and learn some new things and maybe (hopefully) help someone else out along the way. The MODS here are unpaid volunteers and IMO doing the best that they can. Sure, sometimes they might do something that could have been handled a little better but who of us here can say that they have NEVER done something that in hindsight could have been done in a better way. If you answer that last question with "Well, I haven't", fine step up to the plate, become a MOD and show us how its done. These people are doing a job that frankly I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and they VOLUNTEERED to do it. If you see something that is not working or might be done in a better way bring it up for discussion but don't get bent out of shape if things don't go the way you want them. If you still have serious problems with this place there are plenty of other sites on the web that you can go to. It doesn't do any good to yell and scream about something unless you do it in a calm and rational manner and offer up some suggestions of your own. Everyone of us here has a responsiblity to do what we can to make this forum the best that it can be. It is a community and if you are here you are a member of that community. Just like where you live, ugly neighbors bring down the whole neighborhood. Either do your part or go away. The rest of us can do just fine without you.
Now, as far as the WP. I did use it but I did so knowing full well (and wanting) direct and honest opinion. This is what I got and was apreciative of it. However, the last time was a little harsh in the "tone of voice". I'm not sure why it was but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. When I go to the WP I do so because I know that the image is lacking in some way but just can't figure out what it is. I'm there because I honestly want to improve it. I'm not looking for "Ooh nice shot, but the color seems a little off". I hope that we can find a way to bring back the WP in some form or other. Hopefully similar to the way it was with a slightly more relaxed structure. A place where anyone in there knows that if you post there it is because you want honest CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing. Also that anyone can give an opinion but that you don't critique someone else's photo unless you are able to explain how to fix whatever it is the you think is not working. I'm not sure right now how we are going to solve this delimma that we are having but once we do I will do whatever I can to make sure that it work.
— Kevin
My Site, My Book
The demise of the Whipping Post, though saddening, is not a religious issue to me. I'll attempt to get straight critique where I can, and if it works then that's evidence for others.
M
I take your meaning to be unqualified not amateur. An amateur may be more qualified than someone who merely gets paid. (I've seen lots of wedding images that support that):D
Why would you take that to be my meaning? That's not at all what I meant at all. And I totally agree with you on the last part.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
At any rate we agree that an amateur can be qualified to critic? Maybe even take a photo or two!
(im so smart, I can copy, AND paste)
<DL><DT class=hwrd>Main Entry: <DD class=hwrd>am·a·teur
— amateur adjective
— am·a·teur·ish
— am·a·teur·ish·ly adverb
— am·a·teur·ish·ness noun
— am·a·teur·ism
synonyms amateur, dilettante, dabbler, tyro mean a person who follows a pursuit without attaining proficiency or professional status. amateur often applies to one practicing an art without mastery of its essentials <a painting obviously done by an amateur>; in sports it may also suggest not so much lack of skill but avoidance of direct remuneration <remained an amateur despite lucrative offers>. dilettante may apply to the lover of an art rather than its skilled practitioner but usually implies elegant trifling in the arts and an absence of serious commitment <had no patience for dilettantes>. dabbler suggests desultory habits of work and lack of persistence <a dabbler who started novels but never finished them>. tyro implies inexperience often combined with audacity with resulting crudeness or blundering <shows talent but is still a mere tyro>.
so much negativity in this thread and most directed in the wrong way.
does anyone give a hoot that the reason "moderation" was introduced originally was because people were complaining about the poor quality of images posted and comments made.
none of that stopped when moderation began, it just got filtered out before it hit the board at a significant cost to David's time, and little doubt his patience, so everyone could enjoy a more concise, meaningful experience.
with so many topic forums and active members here at dgrin, with many professional photographers participating and giving of their time and expertise - all the non-pro members willing to share, ask questions, offer opinions - the AIRS - Mark and BD and of course Jeff in Weddings, there is little doubt everyone won't continue to get the feedback they seek.
it has been said before - let's get into a habit of including some indication of the type of C&C we seek when we post images. we can work on what that "code" might be but it isn't difficult to ward off the "nice shot" comments when you're really looking for more in depth critique.
.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
I +1
Totally
Good shot, Angelino! ;-)
I just have to put this in....you GUYS are a bit contradictory.
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
Welcome to my NEW website!
Mr. Christoferson
David,
This thread has stunned me. The worst possible thing that could happen out of this is you decide that based upon a few ungrateful people who some how think you "owe" them something, you decide to stop volunteering your time and supporting the rest of us.
While I have been more of a lurker than participant, I have always appreciated your perspective- your professionalism and willingness to share your expertise. In spite of what some others will say, I have found you to show the utmost respect for the posters, and you provide thoughtful insight to keep everything on track.
Please keep it up and don't get discouraged.
http://davedilli.zenfolio.com/
AMEN!
My Site, My Book
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
Welcome to my NEW website!
Mr. Christoferson
I like the idea of a separate area for C&C, whether it's a redesigned WP or an opt-in subforum in the regular forums. In some form, this needs to continue to be available, and I don't think just dropping in a "C&C requested" type subject tag is sufficient.
There has been some valid discussion in this thread from people who are concerned about looking for C/C and having their posts buried in the background noise of the general shots forums. I've seen it happen many times already, and I'm only a month old as a member.
Amateur or professional, everyone can benefit from a thorough look at their work on occasion. For people who are still developing their eye and learning how to move from taking snapshots to taking photographs, the wisdom and experience of the professionals (and non professionals as well) here is invaluable. For those same professionals, having the ability to seek input from their peers can help them keep their skills sharp and prevent stagnation, or perhaps provide them some critical feedback as they expand their view to include new techniques or subjects for themselves.
So, the suggestions: (either/or)
1. Reopen the whipping post. Make it opt-in and have a lengthy disclaimer on the acceptance page covering things like "don't post cell phone camera shots or you will go down in flames" "be prepared for Simon Cowell to critique your work and be pleasantly surprised if you're not crying when it's all over", etc... Yes, I'm making light of this a little bit to get the point across. If you only want members posting the cream of their crop, make sure that everyone who knocks on the door knows that. if they're feeling gutsy enough after that to move forward, then they're prepared to take their licks if that's what ends up happening. If you still feel the need for a mod to review initial posts then do so, but let the folks who are offering the critiques post their opinions without moderation time delay. Once it's gets in the door, it's fair game.
2. Set aside an area in each of the shots forums specifically dedicated to c&c. Move anything that isn't c&c back out to the parent and vice-versa. Initially it will be more legwork, but once people get the feel for it you'll only have to handle the occasional person who doesn't bother/know how to read the forum readmes/stickies.
Hope this helps.
That is the best suggestion that I have seen! I sincerely hope the MODS and SMUGMUG will take it into consideration at least.
What sixdaemonbag says is true, it will take more legwork, at least at the beginning, but think about how many people would be able to benefit from it. I think it will really help DGrin to become bigger and more popular, it already is one of a kind out there, and I think that this will only make it better.
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
Welcome to my NEW website!
Mr. Christoferson
Meanwhile, some of the forums have grown flabby. Snapshots get tons of raves.
Blunt honest critique is a gift. I always try to appreciate it and consider it carefully. I'll be very glad if closing the WP means that more of this goes on all over dgrin.
The worst response a picture can get is dishonest praise or no response. Honest critique is the best.
WELL SPOKEN --- >
EXACTLY!
IMO if a person seeks C&C and posts "crap", he/she should be told so, along with advice on improvements, without worry of hurting feelings. PC ramble often accounts for more of the post than the critique itself in the forums. Surely if someone seeks truth, then that person can handle the outcome of it (or should be expected).... A crap photo could be the shooters 'best' at the time of shooting and even the best of the best could be changed to become 'better'.
A non reply offers no value. All it encourages is non-growth and repeated mistakes.... BUT!!!! expecting this type of review in the "regular" forums could prove tasking (me thinks) for fellas that hold knowledgeable opinions (read; tons of sifting).
nik..... (or any fellow member ftm) If you should EVER see crap in my works, PLEASE leave me a little 4 lettered reply: C.R.A.P.
It would honestly be appreciated.
People these days are to easily offended, so most of the critiquers are afraid to critique! It's like, " how dare you say something bad about my picture", you know what I mean? Of course it would be great if every body wasn't that way, but.....not saying that every body is of course.....
When ever I post a picture, I don't want people to say that it is good, when it in fact has defects! When I post, I want to know what is good AND bad about my picture! And if I ever post anything crappy, tell me (D'Buggs), but also tell me why.
:ivar
D200
NIKKOR 50mm f/1.4 D
Tamron SP AF90mm f/2.8 Di 1:1
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Mr. Christoferson
I've long been a proponent of the hamburger method, where the criticism is flanked by two compliments.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Worst case is an open faced sandwich. if you can only think of one nice thing to say
i.e.
Nice try, but..... It's crap
PERFECT! Simple and to the point. Takes no time to type and encourages one to do better and be more critical. Whereas grasshoppers just chirp while leading the poster in all sorts of undirectional, directions.
..... *IF* the goal is to encourage, that is.
Imagine a post which includes the following:
- clear title
- description of idea
- tactical goals that were set to reach that idea
- equipment used
- environmental circumstances
- SOOC frame
- post-processing used (schematically at least)
- final image
- reasoning of what worked and what not
- optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
For me, such a post would clearly show that:- this most likely is NOT a snapshot
- OP is willing to spend time to work on the image as opposed to throwing in a (few dozen of) random frame(s) and asking "what's wrong with it/them" (the correct question in fact would be "what's wrong with OP" ;-)
- OP is capable of analyzing his/her own work and hence most likely capable of accepting the feedback
Just a thought...This seems like both a fair and reasonable trade, since quality critiquing is time consuming and employs a fair amount of thought if done correctly.
~
I must say David the hamburger method of critiquing is a great way of describing how it should be done, I don't think I had ever heard it put that way before. Can I have my hamburger with extra pickles?
Alternatively, if the "intent" content was written with the same color as the background - that could work as well. (I was going to put something in as a demonstration, but there doesn't seem to be a way to change letter colors with this editor.)
_____________________________________
A place where anyone in there knows that if you post there it is because you want honest CONSTRUCTIVE critiquing. Also that anyone can give an opinion but that you don't critique someone else's photo unless you are able to explain how to fix whatever it is that you think is not working.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Set aside an area in each of the shots forums specifically dedicated to c&c. Move anything that isn't c&c back out to the parent and vice-versa. Initially it will be more legwork, but once people get the feel for it you'll only have to handle the occasional person who doesn't bother/know how to read the forum readmes/stickies.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Imagine a post which includes the following: <o:p></o:p>
- clear title <o:p></o:p>
- description of idea <o:p></o:p>
- tactical goals that were set to reach that idea <o:p></o:p>
- equipment used <o:p></o:p>
- environmental circumstances <o:p></o:p>
- SOOC frame <o:p></o:p>
- post-processing used (schematically at least) <o:p></o:p>
- final image <o:p></o:p>
- reasoning of what worked and what not <o:p></o:p>
- optional questions to help to reach the original idea/goals
___________________________________________Let's keep working on this.
— Kevin
My Site, My Book
But Comrade, we're not in Russia.
FWIW, I wasn't 'targeting' you when I made my 1st reply here. I could've guoted others
> Yours was just handy.
Just wanting that, to be clear...
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=138586
* purposefully cryptic title
* no clear idea/goal
* no description whatsoever
* no apparent ability to handle the "crapdwich" (or even a "[MOD expletive deleted]burger" ;-)
etc.