I'll be interested to hear Andy's ruling on dodging and burning, which are age old techniques. But Ginger, could you please walk me through how you did it, because it looks very nice?
Sid, I have said how I did this, I don't know I waited all yesterday, etc. I don't understand the big deal, if I had not said anything I don't think anyone would have noticed. I was just so excited, because I had often wanted to burn something in, but I had found the tool useless, as when I used it I ended up with a dark smudge. Something clicked in me yesterday morning and I tried it on 20% instead of 100%, duh, and it, of course worked.
I don't even see any point, except I would like to get a ruling on this for the principal of the thing. But I am not going to enter it, not as I feel now. I have alienated a bunch of people, and this is how I did it.
I had used curves and sent it to a friend to see what she thought, I also sent it to this list, I think, and had no comments on the curves thing, but my friend wrote back "fake", and I tended to agree. I needed to change the copy on the frame to "Whisper A Rainbow". My other one is still on the Challenge thing, if you want to see the old copy. So I got out my reflections folder, found an unframed, uncurved version of the photo, and I framed it. And I put the type on.
I was staring at it, when I thought, "I wonder what would happen with the burn tool if I put it at a smaller percentage, as in other things we have done". I was just thinking, and the burn tool, to me, is such a small thing, I mean really basic, I had never been able to use it, and I missed it from my darkroom days.
And the grass at the bottom of the photo had always bothered me. So I tried the burn tool randomly picking the number 20%. It worked pretty good. I don't know the size of the brush, it was not large, I only wanted the grass, and it wasn't too tiny. And I don't know anything about brushes, really, there is a lot I don't know, I have mentioned before that I don't understand a hard brush from a soft brush. All I know is that it was the brush tool a little bigger than the smileys, maybe 1 1/2 times the size. Maybe double. I don't know.
The setting was on midtones, or however it is phrased. I used it. And it worked, but the midtones had not really bothered me, so then I tried it on highlights, and it took care of the whole situation, just the grass at the bottom. You can compare the photos yourself, or I can post them together, it is the grass at the bottom, no water.
Then I had messed up on the framing, not perfect, and it bothered me, the type was too big, or something. So I started over with the same picture, this timed I burned in the grass before I framed it, and I only used the highlight setting. Also, when I burned in the grass on the far left, I could see that the brush included some of the water, so I went "backwards" and did one small area on the bottom at the left with a brush a bit smaller than the smileys.
And I framed it. I put it up here, was so excited that I had finally figured out the burn tool that I mentioned it. And right now, to be honest, I don't like that picture very well. I am extremely hurt. At first I wasn't, but as the day went by, no one was posting, no one said another thing......... I mean I was a little annoyed, but it would be stupid, if I were worried about the voting, for me to tick off half the voters. Which is what I did. I thought it was such a small thing, other people were using curves, and I had just used a burn tool.
I might joke about being a troublemaker, but all of a sudden it did not seem funny to me.
I just wanted someone to talk to me.......... kind of. I almost private messaged you, Sid, then I figured that you would come on eventually. And I was, and I am, hurt. I think what I did was infitesimal (sp?) compared to curves. Or going black and white which Andy had suggested re the boat that was first presented on this thread. (I went back to check out the things Andy had said early on when issues were raised, and I read the thing where he was helping with the boat, suggested a few things, including making it a blk and white.)
As to the rest of the photo, I had duplicated that for my husband one evening, just to show how easy it was. It only took 15 minutes, if that. He has no patience in watching me on the computer.
I had cropped it to straighten the horizon. Since I was doing that, I left out the line and rock at the right.
Then I did levels, the options, using the top one, then I moved the middle bar a bit to the right until I liked it, then I nudged it back a bit, a trick of mine to avoid going too far. So that was it with levels.
Then I went to saturation, and I added a bit of saturation.
Then I went to contrast, maybe, that is my normal pattern, but I have stopped, and I don't know that I used it on that picture or not. The reason I have stopped, in general, is something I read that said it was not, generally, a good tool and could mess up good work.
My intention was/is to sharpen all my photos, the thing is I have been forgetting on some of them. I remember thinking that that was funny, it didn't seem to matter one way or another. So I don't know if I sharpened it or not, but that is definitely allowed. Everything that Andy has been asked about has been allowed, that I am aware of. And suddenly the burn tool was not going to be? I was surprised, hurt, felt that was very surprising, probably was a bit sarcastic in some of my posts, and then the whole thread just kind of died............. my situation may have had nothing to do with that.
The idea with me has never been to "win". I never thought I could/would/whatever. But I do want to be in the final ten, have been very excited about that. I think as long as I leave one of my photos up there that is a given this time. I seem to see reflections everywhere, Sid. Maybe you have not had the rain, then the sunshine that we have had......... I thought about you all when it rained here yesterday afternoon. I thought about me, all I needed to do was grab my camera, and go to one of my "haunts", places that I know of that are soothing to me, or dramatic, etc. I could have had another reflection shot easy. And I live with water all around me. I have thought I could even do better if I had a boat.
I think most people know that I really wanted a shot like Andy took in the window, his second example. I don't have that, but I have given it up for now, I don't want to have more shots to choose from. And Gubbs has that wonderful window shot, himself, from England, with the British background. So I just figure I will keep the thought of Andy's shot in my mind, and look for it when I am downtown sometime. (We don't go often anymore, actually, this whole thing has been great for me, as I have been many more places for the Challenges than I have been in 20 yrs. They have built a lot of parking garages downtown, that is nice, but it also takes away from my food money, my husband doesn't want to go, we can't take his van, so we have stayed home............... That is an aside, but I am trying to say that the challenges have really been fun for me.)
The thing is that now I feel just sick. Not because I am not going to win. That has not been my goal. My goal is always to do a finished product that I like so much that I don't care if I don't win. Also, secondary to that, I would like to be in the final ten. I have not ticked off Andy, and my pictures are good this time, better than usual for me, IMO, so I was not worried about the final ten, or winning.............but on the principal of the thing, I felt like I was being excluded from making a minor change, when others were doing bigger things, and I didn't know why.
I kind of felt paranoid, and that is not quite correct either. I just felt "picked on". And, if I was going to enter the picture, I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual. I have stopped myself from doing anything drastic like taking the one that is on the Challenge down, but obviously I am going to sometime, as the copy is wrong. I would either exchange it for another rainbow picture with the correct copy, or I would exchange it for another one of my photos, probably the Reflections one. Or I would just take it down.
I am trying to maintain some sanity and not make any decisions while I am upset.
I have returned Ginger with another try at my bridge..... Different kerploosh in this frame and I have included a tree trunk in the foreground also. Comments and criticisms are greatly appreciated. Does anyone think we need a grey scale like the one on dpreview? Like this??
I like Rutts skyscapes from Yellowstone - they are gorgeous!
I agree that Rutt's shot is gorgeous, out of this world, lol, out of mine, but so is yours. I used to live in Indiana, it had bridges like "yours".
I never see the kerplooshes, but I can see the tree, I like it, myself. I think I could say that I definitely like it, adds dimension, IMO.
I am curious as to what the grey scale thing is. What do you use it for?
And how?
Sid, I have said how I did this, I don't know I waited all yesterday, etc. I don't understand the big deal, if I had not said anything I don't think anyone would have noticed. I was just so excited, because I had often wanted to burn something in, but I had found the tool useless, as when I used it I ended up with a dark smudge. Something clicked in me yesterday morning and I tried it on 20% instead of 100%, duh, and it, of course worked.
I don't even see any point, except I would like to get a ruling on this for the principal of the thing. But I am not going to enter it, not as I feel now. I have alienated a bunch of people, and this is how I did it.
I admit to being both surprised and pleased by Andy's no PS rule. We currently have 2 challenges. This one for picture taking and the other for digital darkroom work. I like the separation and the purity of having this challenge be of picture taking. It is a challenge to one set of our skills while the digital darkroom is a challenge to another set.
I had used curves and sent it to a friend to see what she thought, I also sent it to this list, I think, and had no comments on the curves thing, but my friend wrote back "fake", and I tended to agree. I needed to change the copy on the frame to "Whisper A Rainbow". My other one is still on the Challenge thing, if you want to see the old copy. So I got out my reflections folder, found an unframed, uncurved version of the photo, and I framed it. And I put the type on.
I was staring at it, when I thought, "I wonder what would happen with the burn tool if I put it at a smaller percentage, as in other things we have done". I was just thinking, and the burn tool, to me, is such a small thing, I mean really basic, I had never been able to use it, and I missed it from my darkroom days.
And the grass at the bottom of the photo had always bothered me. So I tried the burn tool randomly picking the number 20%. It worked pretty good. I don't know the size of the brush, it was not large, I only wanted the grass, and it wasn't too tiny. And I don't know anything about brushes, really, there is a lot I don't know, I have mentioned before that I don't understand a hard brush from a soft brush. All I know is that it was the brush tool a little bigger than the smileys, maybe 1 1/2 times the size. Maybe double. I don't know.
The setting was on midtones, or however it is phrased. I used it. And it worked, but the midtones had not really bothered me, so then I tried it on highlights, and it took care of the whole situation, just the grass at the bottom. You can compare the photos yourself, or I can post them together, it is the grass at the bottom, no water.
Then I had messed up on the framing, not perfect, and it bothered me, the type was too big, or something. So I started over with the same picture, this timed I burned in the grass before I framed it, and I only used the highlight setting. Also, when I burned in the grass on the far left, I could see that the brush included some of the water, so I went "backwards" and did one small area on the bottom at the left with a brush a bit smaller than the smileys.
And I framed it. I put it up here, was so excited that I had finally figured out the burn tool that I mentioned it. And right now, to be honest, I don't like that picture very well. I am extremely hurt. At first I wasn't, but as the day went by, no one was posting, no one said another thing......... I mean I was a little annoyed, but it would be stupid, if I were worried about the voting, for me to tick off half the voters. Which is what I did. I thought it was such a small thing, other people were using curves, and I had just used a burn tool.
I might joke about being a troublemaker, but all of a sudden it did not seem funny to me.
I just wanted someone to talk to me.......... kind of. I almost private messaged you, Sid, then I figured that you would come on eventually. And I was, and I am, hurt. I think what I did was infitesimal (sp?) compared to curves. Or going black and white which Andy had suggested re the boat that was first presented on this thread. (I went back to check out the things Andy had said early on when issues were raised, and I read the thing where he was helping with the boat, suggested a few things, including making it a blk and white.)
As to the rest of the photo, I had duplicated that for my husband one evening, just to show how easy it was. It only took 15 minutes, if that. He has no patience in watching me on the computer.
I had cropped it to straighten the horizon. Since I was doing that, I left out the line and rock at the right.
Then I did levels, the options, using the top one, then I moved the middle bar a bit to the right until I liked it, then I nudged it back a bit, a trick of mine to avoid going too far. So that was it with levels.
Then I went to saturation, and I added a bit of saturation.
Then I went to contrast, maybe, that is my normal pattern, but I have stopped, and I don't know that I used it on that picture or not. The reason I have stopped, in general, is something I read that said it was not, generally, a good tool and could mess up good work.
My intention was/is to sharpen all my photos, the thing is I have been forgetting on some of them. I remember thinking that that was funny, it didn't seem to matter one way or another. So I don't know if I sharpened it or not, but that is definitely allowed. Everything that Andy has been asked about has been allowed, that I am aware of. And suddenly the burn tool was not going to be? I was surprised, hurt, felt that was very surprising, probably was a bit sarcastic in some of my posts, and then the whole thread just kind of died............. my situation may have had nothing to do with that.
The idea with me has never been to "win". I never thought I could/would/whatever. But I do want to be in the final ten, have been very excited about that. I think as long as I leave one of my photos up there that is a given this time. I seem to see reflections everywhere, Sid. Maybe you have not had the rain, then the sunshine that we have had......... I thought about you all when it rained here yesterday afternoon. I thought about me, all I needed to do was grab my camera, and go to one of my "haunts", places that I know of that are soothing to me, or dramatic, etc. I could have had another reflection shot easy. And I live with water all around me. I have thought I could even do better if I had a boat.
I think most people know that I really wanted a shot like Andy took in the window, his second example. I don't have that, but I have given it up for now, I don't want to have more shots to choose from. And Gubbs has that wonderful window shot, himself, from England, with the British background. So I just figure I will keep the thought of Andy's shot in my mind, and look for it when I am downtown sometime. (We don't go often anymore, actually, this whole thing has been great for me, as I have been many more places for the Challenges than I have been in 20 yrs. They have built a lot of parking garages downtown, that is nice, but it also takes away from my food money, my husband doesn't want to go, we can't take his van, so we have stayed home............... That is an aside, but I am trying to say that the challenges have really been fun for me.)
The thing is that now I feel just sick. Not because I am not going to win. That has not been my goal. My goal is always to do a finished product that I like so much that I don't care if I don't win. Also, secondary to that, I would like to be in the final ten. I have not ticked off Andy, and my pictures are good this time, better than usual for me, IMO, so I was not worried about the final ten, or winning.............but on the principal of the thing, I felt like I was being excluded from making a minor change, when others were doing bigger things, and I didn't know why.
I kind of felt paranoid, and that is not quite correct either. I just felt "picked on". And, if I was going to enter the picture, I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual. I have stopped myself from doing anything drastic like taking the one that is on the Challenge down, but obviously I am going to sometime, as the copy is wrong. I would either exchange it for another rainbow picture with the correct copy, or I would exchange it for another one of my photos, probably the Reflections one. Or I would just take it down.
I am trying to maintain some sanity and not make any decisions while I am upset.
But I do want a ruling on the burn issue.
ginger
Ginger, no one is picking on you. I just suggested that you ask Andy for clarification. I do think that "I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual." is the kind of thing each person wants. You took great pictures (truely outstanding) and they don't need to be helped.
PS can be like an addiction and I see Andy's rule as a premptive strike against the photo challenge becoming a PS challenge, but only he can tell us what he really thinks and unfortunately he is away. So relax and smile. Cause we all like you and we definitely admire your shots and your 'shopping skills both
.
Charles Richmond IT & Security Consultant
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
Okay, this assigment really didn't inspire me at first. But I was walking up to my car this morning after getting my daily bagel and saw these reflections.
First one... "How much is that Mini in the Window"
I admit to being both surprised and pleased by Andy's no PS rule. We currently have 2 challenges. This one for picture taking and the other for digital darkroom work. I like the separation and the purity of having this challenge be of picture taking. It is a challenge to one set of our skills while the digital darkroom is a challenge to another set.
Ginger, no one is picking on you. I just suggested that you ask Andy for clarification. I do think that "I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual." is the kind of thing each person wants. You took great pictures (truely outstanding) and they don't need to be helped.
PS can be like an addiction and I see Andy's rule as a premptive strike against the photo challenge becoming a PS challenge, but only he can tell us what he really thinks and unfortunately he is away. So relax and smile. Cause we all like you and we definitely admire your shots and your 'shopping skills both
.
I don't know how I see Andy's ruling. I don't think he interprets it as you all do. If it were "nothing" allowed then my original picture would have to stand.
I have followed his rulings, I went back to check them yesterday, he has been lenient to the point of my wondering what he means by photoshopping.
I followed this discussion, when you all were talking about it on a different thread, and I got the feeling then that he was not on the same page as everyone else.
Maybe we should all enter our photos as they came out of the camera, compared to the end product.
Andy does not get back til Sunday night, the contest ends Monday. I am surprised that you all would be surprised that I am surprised. I think curves is quite a bit of photoshopping, to the extent that I don't do it well at all, and it is allowed. I can understand cropping to straighten a picture. But I was really surprised when Andy said that curves and levels were allowed.
What I have been doing has all been mentioned as OK with Andy. The burn issue has not come up. It really did not occur to me until yesterday.
Look at it this way, cropping is allowed, I could just take those weeds out with a crop. That is manipulating a photograph, IMO. The same as the burn tool that I had never used before. I could not be addicted to something I had never used before.
Now levels, that to me enhances my photos greatly, makes a big difference, easily. But I call that photoshopping.
I have been asked to take photos at a baby shower being given for my son and his wife. I am to take the photos, then they are going to rush them to Sam's to get prints and put them in an Album the same night.
And it was mentioned that that was based on my recent results with photos.
All my recent results with photos have been enhanced by levels. Also I take a lot of photos, 150 to 200 at a time. And I delete as I go along.
I am going to agree to their request for me as the photographer, as I asked my friend, and she told me I should. I know my daughter asked me to do it, as she knows I can't hear anything in a party situation. So she is trying to help me, plus get some good photos for an album of the party.
I hate the idea of not using levels, that to me is addicting, and it is allowed here. Definitely, from the writing of his own self.
It did not, has not, bothered me that I will not be able to dodge and burn the party photos, I would like to be able to use levels, saturation and sharpening, perhaps, on them. That is bothering me.
I think a Challenge without photoshop should be a Challenge without photoshop, totally. This is confusing to me. I think the definition of "photoshopping" is diferent to Andy than it is to most of us, particularly if we are just learning.
I admit to being both surprised and pleased by Andy's no PS rule. We currently have 2 challenges. This one for picture taking and the other for digital darkroom work. I like the separation and the purity of having this challenge be of picture taking. It is a challenge to one set of our skills while the digital darkroom is a challenge to another set.
Ginger, no one is picking on you. I just suggested that you ask Andy for clarification. I do think that "I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual." is the kind of thing each person wants. You took great pictures (truely outstanding) and they don't need to be helped.
PS can be like an addiction and I see Andy's rule as a premptive strike against the photo challenge becoming a PS challenge, but only he can tell us what he really thinks and unfortunately he is away. So relax and smile. Cause we all like you and we definitely admire your shots and your 'shopping skills both
.
Charles, IMO, there is only one Challenge, there is a darkroom forum, workshop, tutorial thing, and I have learned alot there, not recently, but when I first joined.
There have never, that I have seen, been winners. It is not a Challenge, IMO.
I know that is nitpicking, but it is to me another example of how differently things can be interpreted.
Hey Ginger, you're making some beautiful photos. Just look at the quality of your shots, of everyone's shots, in the challenge now compared to 10 weeks ago. The improvement is astounding.
Anyway, please don't feel bad. You haven't done anything wrong. I absolutely cannot speak for Andy, the major domo for these challenges. However, I have a feeling that by "no Photoshop" he meant for the pics to be handled the way one might have printed a film photo a decade ago. Therefore, no layering... but dodging and burning, cropping, adjusting light levels while making the print... all of those are routine darkroom techniques. So I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him say it's ho-hum and perfectly fine.
Either way, you troublemaker, you're still an ethical, albeit tormented person!
And please don't stop shooting reflections just because you already have some excellent shots. You're on a creative roll, keep it going. You may well make another shot, or even five, that are even better! Don't stop now, keep pushing.
I have returned Ginger with another try at my bridge..... Different kerploosh in this frame and I have included a tree trunk in the foreground also. Comments and criticisms are greatly appreciated. Does anyone think we need a grey scale like the one on dpreview? Like this??
I like Rutts skyscapes from Yellowstone - they are gorgeous!
Jim, I love your bridges and this is an especially good one. Looks like it might have been a good candidate for the LAB curves + L USM treatment. Did you do that? Whatever you did, it's very very nice.
Like Ginger, I'm not 100% clear about what you mean by kerploosh.
My only criticism of this shot is (you guessed it) the frame. I'd lose it if I were you. The shot is beautiful, why waste pixels on something so mundane? I've given this advice to Ginger, and she suffered and eventually decided I was wrong. I'm sure you will do the same (but with less suffereing.) Still, I think elaborate frames are a crutch for weak compositions; in this case no such crutch is necessary.
I'm not going to enter this but wondered what you thought
This is an interesting image. What is it exactly? I know why you don't plan to enter it, not enough WOW for a contest, right? On the other hand, I could tell it was yours, which is saying a lot. You might try some curves to get the green really green instead of mud green. Shadow/highlight?
This is an interesting image. What is it exactly? I know why you don't plan to enter it, not enough WOW for a contest, right? On the other hand, I could tell it was yours, which is saying a lot. You might try some curves to get the green really green instead of mud green. Shadow/highlight?
"I could tell it was yours" not sure how to take that but Thanks,
Some friends of ours have recently bought an old house, with a lot of land (by uk standards anyway) and few interesting outbuildings, this is thier overgrown, run down green house that arches over on to high brick wall. Here's another one that didn't work out. I tried and failed to get a subtle reflection of my wife.
I'm probably going against the popular vote here, but if I were you, Ginger, I'd enter this one, just exactly the way it is, no frame, no post of any kind. Rainbows are rainbows and yours is a very good one. This is an amazing composition.
"I could tell it was yours" not sure how to take that but Thanks,
Some friends of ours have recently bought an old house, with a lot of land (by uk standards anyway) this is an overgrown, run down green house that arches over on to high brick wall. Here's another one that didn't work out. I tried and failed to get a subtle reflection of my wife.
Again, I like this a lot and I think the subtle reflection works. It's odd though; even though I think this is a really good picture, I don't think it's a good contest picture. I'm starting to learn to make that distinction.
Jim, I love your bridges and this is an especially good one. Looks like it might have been a good candidate for the LAB curves + L USM treatment. Did you do that? Whatever you did, it's very very nice.
Like Ginger, I'm not 100% clear about what you mean by kerploosh.
My only criticism of this shot is (you guessed it) the frame. I'd lose it if I were you. The shot is beautiful, why waste pixels on something so mundane? I've given this advice to Ginger, and she suffered and eventually decided I was wrong. I'm sure you will do the same (but with less suffereing.) Still, I think elaborate frames are a crutch for weak compositions; in this case no such crutch is necessary.
, I think that frames, if only a line that separates the print from the background, I think it/they hold the picture together, kind of like skin on us.
, ginger
Hey I got me a smiley, that is neat. Thanks to the powers that be.
I don't think it's a good contest picture. I'm starting to learn to make that distinction.
I know what you mean. Its not quite the same I know, as I think both of these would be excellent entries, but I prefer this one, it has mood rather than the "wow" of the other:-
I'm probably going against the popular vote here, but if I were you, Ginger, I'd enter this one, just exactly the way it is, no frame, no post of any kind. Rainbows are rainbows and yours is a very good one. This is an amazing composition.
Rutt, I got an e-mail from an old close friend, he is on his way to Yellowstone to fish until October, anyway, he, too, said this was the best of all. And both of you are going against the popular vote.
Now that photo, you will love this, but that particular one does not need "skin" or a frame. I think it is the colors, but maybe it is the photo, don't know, but somehow it does stand out.
Most of us like our skin, I think that analogy is funny. I also think it is funny that you and Phil, my friend, are on the same page, and you two are kind of alone. I thought it was just because he is so into wildlife, no one else mentions that one. He is brilliant, I imagine that you are,too.
You certainly did a good photograph at Yellowstone. I might lift it off the page and send it to him, he has a small digital camera, is talking about getting back into the darkroom, I am talking digital, he is talking darkroom
He has a very good eye, too. But I am not sure he would interupt his fishing, etc, though he used to carry his camera everywhere.
I got the pro photoshop, Dan Margulis (sp?) book in the mail yesterday. It really takes a lot of time to learn this photography stuff. That book is a two semester course, worth at least 6 credits a semester.
I got the pro photoshop, Dan Margulis (sp?) book in the mail yesterday. It really takes a lot of time to learn this photography stuff. That book is a two semester course, worth at least 6 credits a semester.
The way to approach this book is to read the first 3 chapters or so and just enjoy the good writing style and the big ideas (like the part about what color the pig should be or the part about the purple horses.) Let it sink in a little, then reread for greater detail. Don't skip around until you have gotten a handle on the first 6 chapters.
Damn, now we are all doomed. I wish I could find an option that would keep them from moving. I liked "lol" and "smile" much better. They were more "you".
I am trying to maintain some sanity and not make any decisions while I am upset.
But I do want a ruling on the burn issue.
ginger
Hi, Ginger and all,
I am going to guess that Andy's intent was that we do no selective editing--any correction is applied to the image as a whole--in terms of healing brush, cloning, blurring etc. So Curves/Levels/Shadow-highlight, unsharp mask and even noise reduction tools are allowable. And maybe like someone else said anything that would be done in a conventional darkroom, which would include dodging and burning. I can see why you'd be worried over the deadline.
My favorite of your super shots this week is the reflection of the couple and the houses, FWIW.
I entered a shot without posting it here too, a handheld shot of yes another horse deal. But it was really just proforma, don't stand a chance with all the great stuff people are shooting this time.
Black Skimmer
I think that was Andy's intent, too. You and Sid put it well, I think.
I may enter the bird, though, two people I respect a lot like it. I do have up to the deadline. My computer is giving me a lot of problems today. I just want to post the original of the bird, then the bird here, probably in a medium format, then I will probably put the bird on the Challenge. I could change it, if I were to change my mind. I kind of like how close it is to the original.
I just don't have a name for the picture, it is a Black Skimmer. No frame, no name, I think that is so not my style, it is funny.
Hmmm... Do you actually like this one better than the one below that I entered?
I hadn't seen your entry when I suggested you enter the other. I think it's a hard choice. Your entry is probably a better "contest" picture, but I'd much rather own a print of the first.
I am going to guess that Andy's intent was that we do no selective editing--any correction is applied to the image as a whole--in terms of healing brush, cloning, blurring etc. So Curves/Levels/Shadow-highlight, unsharp mask and even noise reduction tools are allowable. And maybe like someone else said anything that would be done in a conventional darkroom, which would include dodging and burning. I can see why you'd be worried over the deadline.
My favorite of your super shots this week is the reflection of the couple and the houses, FWIW.
I entered a shot without posting it here too, a handheld shot of yes another horse deal. But it was really just proforma, don't stand a chance with all the great stuff people are shooting this time.
Lynne
I agree with your choice of Ginger's flipped relection. That one has been growing on me each time I see it. I would now rate her shots as:
1. Flipped couple
2. Rainbow
3. bird
And Lynne your shot of the horse's eye is excellent but I know how you feel. At one point I thought I might make the final group and even that hope is frayed now :cry
Charles Richmond IT & Security Consultant
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
Comments
Sid, I have said how I did this, I don't know I waited all yesterday, etc. I don't understand the big deal, if I had not said anything I don't think anyone would have noticed. I was just so excited, because I had often wanted to burn something in, but I had found the tool useless, as when I used it I ended up with a dark smudge. Something clicked in me yesterday morning and I tried it on 20% instead of 100%, duh, and it, of course worked.
I don't even see any point, except I would like to get a ruling on this for the principal of the thing. But I am not going to enter it, not as I feel now. I have alienated a bunch of people, and this is how I did it.
I had used curves and sent it to a friend to see what she thought, I also sent it to this list, I think, and had no comments on the curves thing, but my friend wrote back "fake", and I tended to agree. I needed to change the copy on the frame to "Whisper A Rainbow". My other one is still on the Challenge thing, if you want to see the old copy. So I got out my reflections folder, found an unframed, uncurved version of the photo, and I framed it. And I put the type on.
I was staring at it, when I thought, "I wonder what would happen with the burn tool if I put it at a smaller percentage, as in other things we have done". I was just thinking, and the burn tool, to me, is such a small thing, I mean really basic, I had never been able to use it, and I missed it from my darkroom days.
And the grass at the bottom of the photo had always bothered me. So I tried the burn tool randomly picking the number 20%. It worked pretty good. I don't know the size of the brush, it was not large, I only wanted the grass, and it wasn't too tiny. And I don't know anything about brushes, really, there is a lot I don't know, I have mentioned before that I don't understand a hard brush from a soft brush. All I know is that it was the brush tool a little bigger than the smileys, maybe 1 1/2 times the size. Maybe double. I don't know.
The setting was on midtones, or however it is phrased. I used it. And it worked, but the midtones had not really bothered me, so then I tried it on highlights, and it took care of the whole situation, just the grass at the bottom. You can compare the photos yourself, or I can post them together, it is the grass at the bottom, no water.
Then I had messed up on the framing, not perfect, and it bothered me, the type was too big, or something. So I started over with the same picture, this timed I burned in the grass before I framed it, and I only used the highlight setting. Also, when I burned in the grass on the far left, I could see that the brush included some of the water, so I went "backwards" and did one small area on the bottom at the left with a brush a bit smaller than the smileys.
And I framed it. I put it up here, was so excited that I had finally figured out the burn tool that I mentioned it. And right now, to be honest, I don't like that picture very well. I am extremely hurt. At first I wasn't, but as the day went by, no one was posting, no one said another thing......... I mean I was a little annoyed, but it would be stupid, if I were worried about the voting, for me to tick off half the voters. Which is what I did. I thought it was such a small thing, other people were using curves, and I had just used a burn tool.
I might joke about being a troublemaker, but all of a sudden it did not seem funny to me.
I just wanted someone to talk to me.......... kind of. I almost private messaged you, Sid, then I figured that you would come on eventually. And I was, and I am, hurt. I think what I did was infitesimal (sp?) compared to curves. Or going black and white which Andy had suggested re the boat that was first presented on this thread. (I went back to check out the things Andy had said early on when issues were raised, and I read the thing where he was helping with the boat, suggested a few things, including making it a blk and white.)
As to the rest of the photo, I had duplicated that for my husband one evening, just to show how easy it was. It only took 15 minutes, if that. He has no patience in watching me on the computer.
I had cropped it to straighten the horizon. Since I was doing that, I left out the line and rock at the right.
Then I did levels, the options, using the top one, then I moved the middle bar a bit to the right until I liked it, then I nudged it back a bit, a trick of mine to avoid going too far. So that was it with levels.
Then I went to saturation, and I added a bit of saturation.
Then I went to contrast, maybe, that is my normal pattern, but I have stopped, and I don't know that I used it on that picture or not. The reason I have stopped, in general, is something I read that said it was not, generally, a good tool and could mess up good work.
My intention was/is to sharpen all my photos, the thing is I have been forgetting on some of them. I remember thinking that that was funny, it didn't seem to matter one way or another. So I don't know if I sharpened it or not, but that is definitely allowed. Everything that Andy has been asked about has been allowed, that I am aware of. And suddenly the burn tool was not going to be? I was surprised, hurt, felt that was very surprising, probably was a bit sarcastic in some of my posts, and then the whole thread just kind of died............. my situation may have had nothing to do with that.
The idea with me has never been to "win". I never thought I could/would/whatever. But I do want to be in the final ten, have been very excited about that. I think as long as I leave one of my photos up there that is a given this time. I seem to see reflections everywhere, Sid. Maybe you have not had the rain, then the sunshine that we have had......... I thought about you all when it rained here yesterday afternoon. I thought about me, all I needed to do was grab my camera, and go to one of my "haunts", places that I know of that are soothing to me, or dramatic, etc. I could have had another reflection shot easy. And I live with water all around me. I have thought I could even do better if I had a boat.
I think most people know that I really wanted a shot like Andy took in the window, his second example. I don't have that, but I have given it up for now, I don't want to have more shots to choose from. And Gubbs has that wonderful window shot, himself, from England, with the British background. So I just figure I will keep the thought of Andy's shot in my mind, and look for it when I am downtown sometime. (We don't go often anymore, actually, this whole thing has been great for me, as I have been many more places for the Challenges than I have been in 20 yrs. They have built a lot of parking garages downtown, that is nice, but it also takes away from my food money, my husband doesn't want to go, we can't take his van, so we have stayed home............... That is an aside, but I am trying to say that the challenges have really been fun for me.)
The thing is that now I feel just sick. Not because I am not going to win. That has not been my goal. My goal is always to do a finished product that I like so much that I don't care if I don't win. Also, secondary to that, I would like to be in the final ten. I have not ticked off Andy, and my pictures are good this time, better than usual for me, IMO, so I was not worried about the final ten, or winning.............but on the principal of the thing, I felt like I was being excluded from making a minor change, when others were doing bigger things, and I didn't know why.
I kind of felt paranoid, and that is not quite correct either. I just felt "picked on". And, if I was going to enter the picture, I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual. I have stopped myself from doing anything drastic like taking the one that is on the Challenge down, but obviously I am going to sometime, as the copy is wrong. I would either exchange it for another rainbow picture with the correct copy, or I would exchange it for another one of my photos, probably the Reflections one. Or I would just take it down.
I am trying to maintain some sanity and not make any decisions while I am upset.
But I do want a ruling on the burn issue.
ginger
I never see the kerplooshes, but I can see the tree, I like it, myself. I think I could say that I definitely like it, adds dimension, IMO.
I am curious as to what the grey scale thing is. What do you use it for?
And how?
I love that photo, Pathfinder!
ginger
We know that I do like red in a color photo, lol.
Ginger, no one is picking on you. I just suggested that you ask Andy for clarification. I do think that "I did want it to be such as I really liked it, the most that I could, as usual." is the kind of thing each person wants. You took great pictures (truely outstanding) and they don't need to be helped.
PS can be like an addiction and I see Andy's rule as a premptive strike against the photo challenge becoming a PS challenge, but only he can tell us what he really thinks and unfortunately he is away. So relax and smile. Cause we all like you and we definitely admire your shots and your 'shopping skills both
.
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
gubbs.smugmug.com
First one... "How much is that Mini in the Window"
"Roof tops on the roof top"
Kind of crummy composition...
http://lonepine.shutterbugstorefront.com
I don't know how I see Andy's ruling. I don't think he interprets it as you all do. If it were "nothing" allowed then my original picture would have to stand.
I have followed his rulings, I went back to check them yesterday, he has been lenient to the point of my wondering what he means by photoshopping.
I followed this discussion, when you all were talking about it on a different thread, and I got the feeling then that he was not on the same page as everyone else.
Maybe we should all enter our photos as they came out of the camera, compared to the end product.
Andy does not get back til Sunday night, the contest ends Monday. I am surprised that you all would be surprised that I am surprised. I think curves is quite a bit of photoshopping, to the extent that I don't do it well at all, and it is allowed. I can understand cropping to straighten a picture. But I was really surprised when Andy said that curves and levels were allowed.
What I have been doing has all been mentioned as OK with Andy. The burn issue has not come up. It really did not occur to me until yesterday.
Look at it this way, cropping is allowed, I could just take those weeds out with a crop. That is manipulating a photograph, IMO. The same as the burn tool that I had never used before. I could not be addicted to something I had never used before.
Now levels, that to me enhances my photos greatly, makes a big difference, easily. But I call that photoshopping.
I have been asked to take photos at a baby shower being given for my son and his wife. I am to take the photos, then they are going to rush them to Sam's to get prints and put them in an Album the same night.
And it was mentioned that that was based on my recent results with photos.
All my recent results with photos have been enhanced by levels. Also I take a lot of photos, 150 to 200 at a time. And I delete as I go along.
I am going to agree to their request for me as the photographer, as I asked my friend, and she told me I should. I know my daughter asked me to do it, as she knows I can't hear anything in a party situation. So she is trying to help me, plus get some good photos for an album of the party.
I hate the idea of not using levels, that to me is addicting, and it is allowed here. Definitely, from the writing of his own self.
It did not, has not, bothered me that I will not be able to dodge and burn the party photos, I would like to be able to use levels, saturation and sharpening, perhaps, on them. That is bothering me.
I think a Challenge without photoshop should be a Challenge without photoshop, totally. This is confusing to me. I think the definition of "photoshopping" is diferent to Andy than it is to most of us, particularly if we are just learning.
ginger
Charles, IMO, there is only one Challenge, there is a darkroom forum, workshop, tutorial thing, and I have learned alot there, not recently, but when I first joined.
There have never, that I have seen, been winners. It is not a Challenge, IMO.
I know that is nitpicking, but it is to me another example of how differently things can be interpreted.
ginger
Anyway, please don't feel bad. You haven't done anything wrong. I absolutely cannot speak for Andy, the major domo for these challenges. However, I have a feeling that by "no Photoshop" he meant for the pics to be handled the way one might have printed a film photo a decade ago. Therefore, no layering... but dodging and burning, cropping, adjusting light levels while making the print... all of those are routine darkroom techniques. So I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him say it's ho-hum and perfectly fine.
Either way, you troublemaker, you're still an ethical, albeit tormented
And please don't stop shooting reflections just because you already have some excellent shots. You're on a creative roll, keep it going. You may well make another shot, or even five, that are even better! Don't stop now, keep pushing.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
I tried to get it w/o any other cars, but impossible. Busy street. I personally love the old Coke ad.
Doug
I agree, that's a good idea and looks different. Nice thinking.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Like Ginger, I'm not 100% clear about what you mean by kerploosh.
My only criticism of this shot is (you guessed it) the frame. I'd lose it if I were you. The shot is beautiful, why waste pixels on something so mundane? I've given this advice to Ginger, and she suffered and eventually decided I was wrong. I'm sure you will do the same (but with less suffereing.) Still, I think elaborate frames are a crutch for weak compositions; in this case no such crutch is necessary.
Some friends of ours have recently bought an old house, with a lot of land (by uk standards anyway) and few interesting outbuildings, this is thier overgrown, run down green house that arches over on to high brick wall. Here's another one that didn't work out. I tried and failed to get a subtle reflection of my wife.
gubbs.smugmug.com
I'm probably going against the popular vote here, but if I were you, Ginger, I'd enter this one, just exactly the way it is, no frame, no post of any kind. Rainbows are rainbows and yours is a very good one. This is an amazing composition.
Hey I got me a smiley, that is neat. Thanks to the powers that be.
But I think I would enter this one:-
gubbs.smugmug.com
Now that photo, you will love this, but that particular one does not need "skin" or a frame. I think it is the colors, but maybe it is the photo, don't know, but somehow it does stand out.
Most of us like our skin, I think that analogy is funny. I also think it is funny that you and Phil, my friend, are on the same page, and you two are kind of alone. I thought it was just because he is so into wildlife, no one else mentions that one. He is brilliant, I imagine that you are,too.
You certainly did a good photograph at Yellowstone.
He has a very good eye, too. But I am not sure he would interupt his fishing, etc, though he used to carry his camera everywhere.
I got the pro photoshop, Dan Margulis (sp?) book in the mail yesterday. It really takes a lot of time to learn this photography stuff. That book is a two semester course, worth at least 6 credits a semester.
ginger
I love these little people! My new toy.:D
Damn, now we are all doomed. I wish I could find an option that would keep them from moving. I liked "lol" and "smile" much better. They were more "you".
Hi, Ginger and all,
I am going to guess that Andy's intent was that we do no selective editing--any correction is applied to the image as a whole--in terms of healing brush, cloning, blurring etc. So Curves/Levels/Shadow-highlight, unsharp mask and even noise reduction tools are allowable. And maybe like someone else said anything that would be done in a conventional darkroom, which would include dodging and burning. I can see why you'd be worried over the deadline.
My favorite of your super shots this week is the reflection of the couple and the houses, FWIW.
I entered a shot without posting it here too, a handheld shot of yes another horse deal. But it was really just proforma, don't stand a chance with all the great stuff people are shooting this time.
Lynne
Galleries here Upcoming Ranch/Horse Workshop
Hmmm... Do you actually like this one better than the one below that I entered?
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph
I think that was Andy's intent, too. You and Sid put it well, I think.
I may enter the bird, though, two people I respect a lot like it. I do have up to the deadline. My computer is giving me a lot of problems today. I just want to post the original of the bird, then the bird here, probably in a medium format, then I will probably put the bird on the Challenge. I could change it, if I were to change my mind. I kind of like how close it is to the original.
I just don't have a name for the picture, it is a Black Skimmer. No frame, no name, I think that is so not my style, it is funny.
ginger:D
1. Flipped couple
2. Rainbow
3. bird
And Lynne your shot of the horse's eye is excellent but I know how you feel. At one point I thought I might make the final group and even that hope is frayed now :cry
Operating System Design, Drivers, Software
Villa Del Rio II, Talamban, Pit-os, Cebu, Ph