Well, Ginette, you write very well. That is my first thought.
I will admit that I was very surprised re Andy's thoughts on Snappy's beautiful photo. However, I do think he was only trying to be helpful, from his perspective, and his perspective is one element in this whole thing, for some of us. I love knowing his perspective.
Snappy, if that shot is your last shot, or your first, whatever, it is gorgeous!
I agree with Ginette on the "whisper". But I have noticed that the finalists usually scream with the assignment. That may be due to the fact that there can only be so many finalists, that has been what I have been saying..... to keep on the positive side.
On the other hand, our shots are our shots. We are the ones to love them, and since we will not all be chosen every week, I still think the best thing to do is say............well, I can't, it involves the F word. Anyway, that is how much I want to love my shots. So as not to be devastated that it does not get into the finals.
I, personally, love subtlety, and I love your "home" shots, particularly the one in question. It screams to me, and I would like to be able to look at it. I am sure, I know, others here feel the same. I would let it stand, for you, and for us, unless you come up with something you love better.
I would give Andy's comment the weight that you would give anyone else's. We treat him like god, but sometimes we have to remember that he is a very good photographer, a nice person, but his opinion is only that. Photography, as we are doing it is an art form. By nature art is subjective.
So his comments are very, very important, I want to know what he thinks on two levels. He and someone else pick the finalists, so it is important, and informative to find out how he does it, for me. The other thing is that he is good, so are others, but Andy stands out in his visibility. But he does have wisdom to impart to us. So do others. In the end, we are our own judges in this, IMO, as their wisdom is very useful, something to ponder, but not something written in granite. Kind of like a book critic, a movie critic, a music critic. Sometimes we agree, and sometimes we don't. If we are the ones who did the movie, book, etc, we have to grow thick skins, come into ourselves, by giving everything some weight, but giving their opinions the weight as part of a whole recipe. At the end, I like my fudge grainy like, and most critics like it creamy. It is all a matter of taste.
I would not pull your entry. I can understand that you would be upset. As an artist, you would Have to be upset. I would be upset. But give it a couple of days. Remember me, the burning and the rainbow. Some disagreed with the burning, others did not. Yes, it did not go in, but the photo in there did not come out, and that was about the only sane thing I did for a couple of days, I was so angry. I had three photos to rotate. Very different, and I rotated the other two, but would not put the rainbow back in, so I can see how you feel.
If you do pull your entry, or if you did, please stay involved with the discussions, that is the only way I could come out of my funk, or deal with it. Also I could vent, and I did. Plus we need you, I need you. I love your feedback.
Chin up, nose to the grindstone............ and other impossible positions. hehe, I love your photo, that only carries the weight that I love it.
I must not be on a roll
I loved this, but got no critiques. Negative works as well as positive.
I see the lines and curves, but maybe others don't. She isn't my daughter, so that's not really it. Maybe I'm just a sucker for kid pictures.
I loved this, but got no critiques. Negative works as well as positive.
I see the lines and curves, but maybe others don't. She isn't my daughter, so that's not really it. Maybe I'm just a sucker for kid pictures.
rutt, give it some time. you only posted it yesterday, and not a lot of folks have been on....
i see curves, and yes lines. but to me, the overwhelming element in this shot is the cute kid... a fine shot.
I was concerned if it would be recognized as a sluice box or not. Thanks for your encouragement. I just finished an alternative image
Not as dramatic in tonality, but it certainly has lines and curves as a thematic element.
I like this one. I am going to use the new catch phrase, as I see it, and I hope I don't offend anyone. But the other photos did not "scream" lines and curves to me, though I liked them a lot. I did not recognize a sluice box, but I did have trouble finding the lines and curves.
One thing, I have a problem knowing what to say when I don't want to hurt someone, or have a dissenting opinion.
I am concerned about Andy's feelings, too. Andy, I loved that you were taking part yesterday, and I hope you can feel free to continue, I hope that you do continue.
I have been there, had to say something I really did not want to say, but anything else would not have been honest with me. And I have held back at times, when the tide seemed strongly against me. Most times, as the comments were made on the entries, I was right as to the thinking of some other people. But it is scary to make the suggestions, do a critique, and it is scary to be critiqued. I belong to list where I have stopped contributing much as they seem to be "not honest". By nature, an opinion should be honest.
IMO.
Andy and Snappy, steady now, stay with us, please.
i dig the subtlety approach too, and it's an important part of my work.
snappy, i said i liked the shots, i hope you saw that.
and ginger - i'm no god, just a guy :bash
ginger, your words here are very well put - they should be read by everyone!
Andy must be going crazy on this. Give him a break. I'm going to share a little background with you all and then maybe we can all be on the same page.
I asked Andy to monitor the critique forum more closely and interceed when there was a shot that was getting a lot of positive feedback but which he felt wasn't "spot on" message for the contest subject. I did this because I felt my last two entries didn't make the finals because the judges had a particular idea of what they were looking for and somehow my shots weren't it. In spite of the fact that the participants in the critique thread were generally positive about both shots and their relevance.
So now Andy is doing what I asked him to do. (Thanks, Andy.) He made it clear to me that he didn't really have the time to do so. But he is trying. He must feel very frustrated to get push back on this. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?
Look, Andy isn't God (we'll give Andy that, certainly). But as far as these contests go, he is like the teacher of a class in photography. Because he is the judge, the assingment is his to define. When it comes time to learn about the World War I in history class and the history prof assigns a paper on the reason for the war, it's the teacher's responsibility to make sure everyone understand the assignment. The students should try to write a paper that fullfills the assignment as they understand it. If a student writes "A Farewell to Arms" for this assignment, well it might get a failing grade but win a Nobel Prize.
OK, maybe that metaphor is streched a little thin, but the "Lines and Curves" assignment seemed a little vacuous at first. Jeez lines and curves are everywhere. Andy's shots are nice, but they really don't completely define what he has in mind. Certainly he doesn't want us to just go out and reproduce them. But now he is telling us that he wants really strong lines and curves. More than in my child portrait and more than in Snappy's fruit. So let's listen when the teacher gives direction. Really.
Andy, if you aren't comfortable in this role (I think you should be), then you should reconsider the format of the challenges. Everyone else, if you aren't comfortable with Andy's challenges, there are other ways to grow as photographers and other challenges online.
Hope I haven't just sturred up a hornet's nest. Andy, perhaps this belongs on the Attitude thread. Your call.
The idea is funny, DJ. It definitely has lines and curves. And the composition's pretty good. One thing it's missing is the photographic 'wow' factor. Things that make you go 'wow' are lighting, unusual perspectives, unusual subject matter, unique moments. That sort of thing. From that point of view, the shot is rather plain. Maybe at sunset the same shot would have long shadows, and the little ridges in the wood would have some depth, and the ball would have an elliptical shadow? Maybe not, but that's the sort of thing that would elevate a shot. I frequently find myself thinking that a shot has two have at least two levels to be really appealing.
Thanks Sid, that's exactly what I was looking for. I knew it was "okay" and I was actually pretty happy about the photoshop work on it, but I also knew it was missing the mark. That was a good explanation; very helpful.
Round 2
Came up to this bridge at sunset and I was trying to get the "bow wave" that the bridge support was making in the stream. I photoshopped this pretty "heavily" for my taste; too much?
Has a building permit on it, so it won't last long, sad to say.
Lines, just lines. I don't know how much more on message I'm capable of being.
I really like this shot rutt.. it has lines but no curves.. It's a little sad, seems to be saying goodbye.. its lovely. I'm not sure about it for lines and curves tho.:D
Rutt... you sure do take great kid portraits. I also dont see the lines and curves. I mean I see them but they dont represent the focus of the shot. The focus of the shot to me is this great attitude and look of this kid.:D
Came up to this bridge at sunset and I was trying to get the "bow wave" that the bridge support was making in the stream. I photoshopped this pretty "heavily" for my taste; too much?
Hi DJ, thats a neat shot. It is a little heavily pshopped for me too (I don't know how I dare say that.. I over ps everything myselft). It makes it a little harsh for my taste. I love the shapes and textures tho.. for my personal taste I'd like to see it a little softer.... but thats only me.:D
Nantucket is like any tourist destination, Main Street is teaming, but just a block or two away there are these little streets in town that are totally quiet. That's where the dog and I like to go.
sure there's some lines and curves here.
but y'know what i'd look for? get on your bike or in your car, head over to madekat or sconset and fine a really cool "ess" curve in the road, get down low and shoot it. early morn or late day sweet light would be best. coupla summer folk biking in semi-shadow would accentuate, if properly positioned.
but y'know what i'd look for? get on your bike or in your car, head over to madekat or sconset and fine a really cool "ess" curve in the road, get down low and shoot it. early morn or late day sweet light would be best. coupla summer folk biking in semi-shadow would accentuate, if properly positioned.
Did you see this from yesterday's bike race (maybe the last road race on the island, sadly). I didn't put it here because I didn't think it was on message, but I really don't seem to be good at getting figuring out what is and isn't.
I like this, especially the gnarly legs. Is it cropped?
No it was not cropped. I shot shot it knowing it would be better in B&W ( I know Rutt prefers color), but his was essentially a monotone image originally.)
I had anticipated needing to clone out the wire across the top of the frame and was dreading it - Why do they always muck up old architecture with electric wires everywhere?? But after processing the image I thought that it was a nice contrasting curve to the curves on the top of the sluice box itself. Do you feel this image is clearly representative of lines and curves?
John - she is really cute and will be dynamite in the future and you have a very sensitive image of her - But I do not think she is lines and curves, she is so much more than that..
I said earlier that I think "lines and curves" are easier with artificial rather than organic subjects. Repetitive lines and curves I think are the ticket. YMMV of course. Andy Knows!!!!
I like this as much, but thought the hoop needed a bit more space around it.
Sorry, but there is no room at the inn - here is the original frame. I guess I did not plan ahead enough. It was a dull overcast evenign, and I was shooting at ISO 800 so I knew the image would be grainy and again anticipated a B&W image.
Came up to this bridge at sunset and I was trying to get the "bow wave" that the bridge support was making in the stream. I photoshopped this pretty "heavily" for my taste; too much?
DJ - The colors on the bridge seem a little oversaturated to my eye and I suspect the image has been oversharpened also. I miss being able to see the other arch on the bridge. Bridges are great subjects for "Lines and Curves"
Can you get further upstream and reshoot late in the afternoon or in the early morning for a nice warm sidelighting? I would like to see both arches as a repetitive element.
Did you see this from yesterday's bike race (maybe the last road race on the island, sadly). I didn't put it here because I didn't think it was on message, but I really don't seem to be good at getting figuring out what is and isn't.
John - Great picture of bike racers...... but not of lines and curves. I really think this is about abstraction, not organic forms. This is not a great picture perhaps, but is defintely lines and curves.....
Came up to this bridge at sunset and I was trying to get the "bow wave" that the bridge support was making in the stream. I photoshopped this pretty "heavily" for my taste; too much?
That's a very nice shot, DJ. I think you're right - the gold on the bridge feels a tad oversaturated, and the image is a bit noisy (sharpening? ISO?) But it's an excellent pic.
So ..... I've been reading and following all week long watching the great images of lines and curves get posted. Finally I don't have to go to work today and I want to go out and shoot some lines and curves. AND WHAT DO I SEE EVERYWHERE??? Reflections!!
I know what you mean! And that's a beautiful shot, too!
I give up. You just can't please some people. I have withdrawn my entry.
Snapapple, I surely understand your frustration. It's never easy being critiqued. Everyone falls in love with their shots and it's very hard to be dispassionate about one's own work (that's you, me, and everyone else.). As Ginger so rightly says, passion means caring, and that's a good thing!
I often hesitate to offer a critique because I worry about people getting hurt and angry. I try hard to find the good things in a shot, and then be honest about my reservations. And they're only my own reservations, one person's opinion, no more. But, and this is important, the only feedback worth having is honest feedback.
And you have, on more than once occasion, solicited feedback. Ask, and ye shall receive! So while I understand and empathise with your frustration, I also feel that it's unfair to ask for feedback and then take a bite out of someone who gives it. FWIW, I happen to agree completely with Andy's observations. If you'll remember my feedback on your shots, I skipped the first one because I felt it was the least relevant of your threesome, and I didn't want to be all negative. :cry
Is there a male versus female aesthetic sensibility thing happening? I dunno. I'm just here to play and learn. And it's a great learning opportunity.
By limiting us to one entry per challenge, we're forced to say one of our babies is uglier than the other. It's a great exercise in self-editing, which is an important growth step, IMHO.
Oversharpening? Oversaturated? Spot-on, as they say. Can't get anything ast you guys. As I guessed, I had laid it on a bit thick in PS. I actualy think I USM'd it, then tweaked a few more things, then shapened it again by mistake.
Here's another try, used Neat Image first for less noise as well.
As for going back to get the other tunnel in the frame, I think that's a great idea but I won't be able to do that until at least next weekend. And knowing myself, I won't remember to do it! But I can see what you mean, the repetition would help.
Oversharpening? Oversaturated? Spot-on, as they say. Can't get anything ast you guys. As I guessed, I had laid it on a bit thick in PS. I actualy think I USM'd it, then tweaked a few more things, then shapened it again by mistake.
Here's another try, used Neat Image first for less noise as well.
As for going back to get the other tunnel in the frame, I think that's a great idea but I won't be able to do that until at least next weekend. And knowing myself, I won't remember to do it! But I can see what you mean, the repetition would help.
Oversharpening? Oversaturated? Spot-on, as they say.
Here's another try, used Neat Image first for less noise as well.
Yes, big improvement! To add color, you might check out some of Andy's toning threads in the Hall of Wisdom. If you have Photoshop or something similar, you can get the effect you were looking for, without oversaturating the image.
Briefly, instead of saturating what is already there, you add a color layer over the bits of the shot you want to change.
Lines and curvers in the shower??? is this totally off the wall??
No.. It's not off the wall - It's in the shower!!!:
I like the slight blur and the colors , the curve of the hose over the faucet handle does not seem quite right to me but what do I know. I think there may be a picture here - whether it is lines and curves I am not so sure.
Snapapple, I surely understand your frustration. It's never easy being critiqued. Everyone falls in love with their shots and it's very hard to be dispassionate about one's own work (that's you, me, and everyone else.). As Ginger so rightly says, passion means caring, and that's a good thing!
I often hesitate to offer a critique because I worry about people getting hurt and angry. I try hard to find the good things in a shot, and then be honest about my reservations. And they're only my own reservations, one person's opinion, no more. But, and this is important, the only feedback worth having is honest feedback.
And you have, on more than once occasion, solicited feedback. Ask, and ye shall receive! So while I understand and empathise with your frustration, I also feel that it's unfair to ask for feedback and then take a bite out of someone who gives it. FWIW, I happen to agree completely with Andy's observations. If you'll remember my feedback on your shots, I skipped the first one because I felt it was the least relevant of your threesome, and I didn't want to be all negative. :cry
Is there a male versus female aesthetic sensibility thing happening? I dunno. I'm just here to play and learn. And it's a great learning opportunity.
By limiting us to one entry per challenge, we're forced to say one of our babies is uglier than the other. It's a great exercise in self-editing, which is an important growth step, IMHO.
BTW, Ginger, great post! Thoughtful as always.
I think it is very hard to critique others' work. I do not wish to offend anyone and I want to encourage others to want to contribute and or join us. But you are correct, waxy, if no one will give an honest opinion out of fear of hurting someone's feelings, well, they will never grow and learn.
I was disappointed a few weeks ago by not making the finalists, but after reflection over a few weeks, I came to realize the judges were correct. I learned something as a result. There is a difference between shooting what moves us or catches our eye, and what the assignment is and what will move another viewer and catch their eye. We all need feedback, good and bad. Like you said, positive as well as negative information.
And as Rutt has mentioned earlier - there is a big difference between a great image and an image that is perfect for the biweekly Challenge. We need to keep that in mind also. It is quite possible to submit a really great image that does not meet the criteria. And we may not all agree all the time - this is art, it's supposed to be fun. Most of us have a real day job after all.
Comments
i dig the subtlety approach too, and it's an important part of my work.
snappy, i said i liked the shots, i hope you saw that.
and ginger - i'm no god, just a guy :bash
ginger, your words here are very well put - they should be read by everyone!
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I loved this, but got no critiques. Negative works as well as positive.
I see the lines and curves, but maybe others don't. She isn't my daughter, so that's not really it. Maybe I'm just a sucker for kid pictures.
rutt, give it some time. you only posted it yesterday, and not a lot of folks have been on....
i see curves, and yes lines. but to me, the overwhelming element in this shot is the cute kid... a fine shot.
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I like this one. I am going to use the new catch phrase, as I see it, and I hope I don't offend anyone. But the other photos did not "scream" lines and curves to me, though I liked them a lot. I did not recognize a sluice box, but I did have trouble finding the lines and curves.
One thing, I have a problem knowing what to say when I don't want to hurt someone, or have a dissenting opinion.
I am concerned about Andy's feelings, too. Andy, I loved that you were taking part yesterday, and I hope you can feel free to continue, I hope that you do continue.
I have been there, had to say something I really did not want to say, but anything else would not have been honest with me. And I have held back at times, when the tide seemed strongly against me. Most times, as the comments were made on the entries, I was right as to the thinking of some other people. But it is scary to make the suggestions, do a critique, and it is scary to be critiqued. I belong to list where I have stopped contributing much as they seem to be "not honest". By nature, an opinion should be honest.
IMO.
Andy and Snappy, steady now, stay with us, please.
ginger
I asked Andy to monitor the critique forum more closely and interceed when there was a shot that was getting a lot of positive feedback but which he felt wasn't "spot on" message for the contest subject. I did this because I felt my last two entries didn't make the finals because the judges had a particular idea of what they were looking for and somehow my shots weren't it. In spite of the fact that the participants in the critique thread were generally positive about both shots and their relevance.
So now Andy is doing what I asked him to do. (Thanks, Andy.) He made it clear to me that he didn't really have the time to do so. But he is trying. He must feel very frustrated to get push back on this. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?
Look, Andy isn't God (we'll give Andy that, certainly). But as far as these contests go, he is like the teacher of a class in photography. Because he is the judge, the assingment is his to define. When it comes time to learn about the World War I in history class and the history prof assigns a paper on the reason for the war, it's the teacher's responsibility to make sure everyone understand the assignment. The students should try to write a paper that fullfills the assignment as they understand it. If a student writes "A Farewell to Arms" for this assignment, well it might get a failing grade but win a Nobel Prize.
OK, maybe that metaphor is streched a little thin, but the "Lines and Curves" assignment seemed a little vacuous at first. Jeez lines and curves are everywhere. Andy's shots are nice, but they really don't completely define what he has in mind. Certainly he doesn't want us to just go out and reproduce them. But now he is telling us that he wants really strong lines and curves. More than in my child portrait and more than in Snappy's fruit. So let's listen when the teacher gives direction. Really.
Andy, if you aren't comfortable in this role (I think you should be), then you should reconsider the format of the challenges. Everyone else, if you aren't comfortable with Andy's challenges, there are other ways to grow as photographers and other challenges online.
Hope I haven't just sturred up a hornet's nest. Andy, perhaps this belongs on the Attitude thread. Your call.
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Has a building permit on it, so it won't last long, sad to say.
Lines, just lines. I don't know how much more on message I'm capable of being.
Came up to this bridge at sunset and I was trying to get the "bow wave" that the bridge support was making in the stream. I photoshopped this pretty "heavily" for my taste; too much?
sure there's some lines and curves here.
but y'know what i'd look for? get on your bike or in your car, head over to madekat or sconset and fine a really cool "ess" curve in the road, get down low and shoot it. early morn or late day sweet light would be best. coupla summer folk biking in semi-shadow would accentuate, if properly positioned.
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No it was not cropped.
I had anticipated needing to clone out the wire across the top of the frame and was dreading it - Why do they always muck up old architecture with electric wires everywhere?? But after processing the image I thought that it was a nice contrasting curve to the curves on the top of the sluice box itself. Do you feel this image is clearly representative of lines and curves?
Any way - here is the original....
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I said earlier that I think "lines and curves" are easier with artificial rather than organic subjects. Repetitive lines and curves I think are the ticket. YMMV of course. Andy Knows!!!!
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Can you get further upstream and reshoot late in the afternoon or in the early morning for a nice warm sidelighting? I would like to see both arches as a repetitive element.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
That's a very nice shot, DJ. I think you're right - the gold on the bridge feels a tad oversaturated, and the image is a bit noisy (sharpening? ISO?) But it's an excellent pic.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Nope.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Snapapple, I surely understand your frustration. It's never easy being critiqued. Everyone falls in love with their shots and it's very hard to be dispassionate about one's own work (that's you, me, and everyone else.). As Ginger so rightly says, passion means caring, and that's a good thing!
I often hesitate to offer a critique because I worry about people getting hurt and angry. I try hard to find the good things in a shot, and then be honest about my reservations. And they're only my own reservations, one person's opinion, no more. But, and this is important, the only feedback worth having is honest feedback.
And you have, on more than once occasion, solicited feedback. Ask, and ye shall receive!
Is there a male versus female aesthetic sensibility thing happening?
By limiting us to one entry per challenge, we're forced to say one of our babies is uglier than the other. It's a great exercise in self-editing, which is an important growth step, IMHO.
BTW, Ginger, great post! Thoughtful as always.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Here's another try, used Neat Image first for less noise as well.
As for going back to get the other tunnel in the frame, I think that's a great idea but I won't be able to do that until at least next weekend. And knowing myself, I won't remember to do it! But I can see what you mean, the repetition would help.
Briefly, instead of saturating what is already there, you add a color layer over the bits of the shot you want to change.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
I like the slight blur and the colors
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I was disappointed a few weeks ago by not making the finalists, but after reflection over a few weeks, I came to realize the judges were correct. I learned something as a result. There is a difference between shooting what moves us or catches our eye, and what the assignment is and what will move another viewer and catch their eye. We all need feedback, good and bad. Like you said, positive as well as negative information.
And as Rutt has mentioned earlier - there is a big difference between a great image and an image that is perfect for the biweekly Challenge. We need to keep that in mind also. It is quite possible to submit a really great image that does not meet the criteria. And we may not all agree all the time - this is art, it's supposed to be fun. Most of us have a real day job after all.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin