OK... this morning didn't go so well. Tried something very different with not a lot of time and a grumpy wife. Not a good formula. Only got 3 frames shot and I didn't get a chance to look at them on the puter. We'll see later this afternoon how they turned out. No matter what, I will post the shot.
What did you do wrong.......you know its your fault!!~!~!! lol
You have the lighting and ratios down so this is just for the posing. Of the three for the pose I like #3. The rest seem out of balance on her right side. Needed to bring the arm out more to create a broader base for that sweater. With the bright white on the should it seems as if she has no arm.
I don't even have to ask to know it's my fault. HAHA.
I don't see your point about the pose. Because the shape of the sweater is so wide on top, I automatically went when a pose where she wasn't square to the camera. Now I kind of see how that didn't work so well. No worries, more practice.
Fantastic work Alex and thank you for sharing with us.
What is the color (or name) of that background?
Marcelo
Thank you Marcelo. I really appreciate you guys putting up with this mega thread and continuing to look and sharing your feedback. It's really helped me a lot.
The background is a simple seamless paper 18% gray background. I don't recall the brand. It's actually the small 6' wide roll. I bought it on whim and didn't use it for a long time. I decided to try it and I absolute love it. You can do so much with it. Turn it black, make it white, it really saturates gels well. Very flexible backdrop.
I'm going to pick up 10' roll to give me more wiggle room in the next week or so. I just have to figure out how to get home in my Mini Cooper.
So as I mentioned, tried something completely different this morning. I decided to ditch the softboxes and try some stuff with just the Alien Bees and the basic 7" reflector. We were a bit rushed today because Thursday's our cleaning lady comes bright and early. Add a grumpy wife to that and it's a recipe for not so happy photographer.
I went with a beauty lighting setup with this shot. I had the main and fill right in front of her, main above at 45° and fill below, just under her chin and aiming up. Hair light was on a boom aimed directly down. She was already grumpy and then when I flashed her right in the eyes, she got even grumpier. 3 shots and she was done. Just got up and walked away.
Honestly, I didn't think much of the shots at the time. All day, I thought I was coming home to 3 throwaway shots. I was quite surprised by the last frame I took. I personally think it came out awesome but I will wait to pass final judgment after I hear some comments.
3-Light Setup
Key Light: AB800 with 7" standard reflector & 40° grid, directly above at 45° set to just under f/8
Fill Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 20° grid, just below chin height set to f/5.6
Hair Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 30° grid, on boom over head set to f/5.6
Example of 7" reflector I used:
D700: 1/250 @ f/7.1 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 130mm
It all happened so fast, I just happy I survived in one piece.
Yes. The perspective was on purpose. And I'm not really below her. I'm right at her eye level or just a hair below. The plan was to have her tilt her head down just a tad but like I said, she wasn't really game today.
BTW, here is a slightly stylized edit. I desaturated it just a hair and added a little tiny bit of haze.
Ha, I wish my "bad" shots turned out this nice. Great work, and love the lighting! I have seen this type and have often wondered exactly what type of setup is needed for it. You did a great job regardless of attitudes involved.
I'm with you on liking the second one for its color. Check out the sharp edge of the shadow under the nose.....coming from a small undiffused hard light....nice. For me a reflector under her instead of the light would have given a beautiful and larger catch light on the bottom of the eye and still filled in. One less cord to trip over. When she is in a better mood do it again and I like your idea of tipping the head down then bright the eyes up to the camera........will be sweet!!
She was really bothered by the flash from the strobes. I understand it's a much harder, concentrated light, but she said it was blinding and really uncomfortable. Is this normal? Did I maybe have the lights too close or positioned wrong? Maybe she's more sensitive to flash than the average person?
Was it the flash or the modeling lights that bothered her? Some say flash but it could be the modeling lights, if so drop down the power of the modeling lts. Contacts seem to make a person more sensitive to bright lights. You can also add a grid to the light to focus it more and it should be a little less bothersome.
Hurrell did the type of light your trying but I heard he owned an old movie theater and at times the lights were very far away, doesn't sound right but that is what I read once.
I had the modeling light turned off so it wasn't that. She initially complained about it and that's why I shut it off. She does wear contacts so maybe that is adding to the issue. I also had a grid on the light, a 40° grid. Maybe I'll try the 30 or 20 to concentrate the light a bit more to see if it helps but it may change the light pattern for worse. We'll see.
Yes. I researched Hurrell a while back and he did use a similar light setup. Although he used Fresnal lens hot lights and from what I also read, they were a bit of a distance away.
Charles made a few suggestions for me to try with the setup I shot yesterday. He suggestion I swap the fill light with reflector and I modify the pose slightly. I tried just that today.
BTW, still using my gray background on these shots which illustrate how black you can get them by not lighting them.
3-Light Setup
Key Light: AB800 with 7" standard reflector & 30° grid, directly above at 45° set to just under f/8
Kicker Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 40° grid, behind and to camera left set to f/5.6
Hair Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 20° grid, behind and to camera right set to f/4
D700: 1/250 @ f/7.1 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 102mm
I think the shot in post 97 is actually my favorite so far.
Question for you: you say you had the fill light under her chin shooting up... so why isn't it brighter under her chin than on her camera left shoulder? Just trying to figure out how you did this. I use a quasi-clamshell setup quite a lot (although with a reflector, and sometimes moved a tad towards the 45* angle instead of square on), but I haven't tried it with two lights.... you may have convinced me to try it
I think the shot in post 97 is actually my favorite so far.
Question for you: you say you had the fill light under her chin shooting up... so why isn't it brighter under her chin than on her camera left shoulder? Just trying to figure out how you did this. I use a quasi-clamshell setup quite a lot (although with a reflector, and sometimes moved a tad towards the 45* angle instead of square on), but I haven't tried it with two lights.... you may have convinced me to try it
Diva... Dumb luck?
I did have the fill set to a height just under her chin. This just seemed right to me at the time. I wasn't follow some master plan I thoughtfully drew up. It was pointed up but only slightly, aiming at her lips. It had a 20° grid and was fairly close so the spread of the light was pretty concentrated. When I metered the lights, I did them one at a time and then I took a final reading with all the lights on.
When I metered the main, I took a reading at the center of the light, which was right around her forehead. I adjusted the power until this reading was at f/8. I then took another reading at her chin and it was f/5.6. Then another reading at her shoulder at about f/3.2.
I then turned the main off and metered the fill. Again, center reading reading first which I set to f/5.6. This was just around the upper lip area. Keep in mind, with the 20° grid, the light fall-off is really steep so the chin was probably about f/4. So the shoulder is a tad darker than the chin. It's just the relative contrast between the main and the fill on the face is about the same ratio as the relative contrast on the body so the chin and shoulder look to be at about the same f-stop. The light on her should is actually mostly coming from the main light.
Does that make sense.
BTW, these last two setups have really demonstrated to me the power of having a light meter. I've tried using the 7" reflectors with grids before and I always failed miserably. The lights were always either way too hot, with specular highlights or way underexposed. And this was with quite a bit of chimping. I took these shots without any additional adjustments to the light power after dialing in with the meter.
Decided to use my umbrellas today to explore the difference in them from the other modifiers I've used. Umbrellas seem to be much more forgiving with light but it's also harder to isolate the light they emit. What I like though is that they throw a nice feathered, soft light.
2-Light Setup
Key Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera left metered at f/5.6
Fill Light - Large white round reflector almost directly in front
Kicker Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera right and behind, metered at f/4
D700: 1/250 @ f/5.6 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 110mm
Thanks Hack. Just trying something different. I know it's personal but I kind of like it. No real reason I went with the green gel other than I had yet to use it.
Same setup as Day 14 but I removed the green gel from the kicker.
2-Light Setup
Key Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera left metered at f/5.6
Fill Light - Large white round reflector almost directly in front
Kicker Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera right and behind, metered at f/4
D700: 1/250 @ f/5.6 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 135mm
Oh, I like this one too. I wish the reflector wasn't so visible in her eyes, but it isn't too distracting. I love seeing the results of your two light / reflector setups because I actually have the equipment to try them... Now I just need to find the time. Thanks again, really like this thread!!
Thanks Phil. I've been doing more stuff with two lights knowing that you and a few others have this setup. An effort to make what I'm doing more applicable to others in the forum.
Alex I have a semi-commercial shoot coming up with a friend of mine from the USS Abraham Lincoln. I am wanting to do a three light setup like Joel Grimes (It will be shot in an idustrial location in Tacoma, WA) and then do a composite of the club he works at and some other areas. The only issue I have is I dont have any grids. The modifiers I have are the PCB 86" Extreme Silver PLM, Photo Flex Medium Octodome3, PCB 22" Beauty Dish with the diffusion sock, and a couple 44" umbrellas that can be used as shoot thru if needed. I want to use the BD as the main light with the others as kickers on the sides to aid in easy extraction. Do you think that will work without strip boxes with grids?
Alex I have a semi-commercial shoot coming up with a friend of mine from the USS Abraham Lincoln. I am wanting to do a three light setup like Joel Grimes (It will be shot in an idustrial location in Tacoma, WA) and then do a composite of the club he works at and some other areas. The only issue I have is I dont have any grids. The modifiers I have are the PCB 86" Extreme Silver PLM, Photo Flex Medium Octodome3, PCB 22" Beauty Dish with the diffusion sock, and a couple 44" umbrellas that can be used as shoot thru if needed. I want to use the BD as the main light with the others as kickers on the sides to aid in easy extraction. Do you think that will work without strip boxes with grids?
Well, if you look at Grimes' setup, you'll notice that he uses the gridded box as kickers. He places them so he gets just enough wrap-around light to the sides so it just about kisses the outside of the eyes. I don't think not have grids will hurt you as much as the size and shape of your modifiers. You'll need to place them behind the subject so I suspect you'll be battling flare a bit using round modifiers. Maybe I'm wrong, never tried it.
What I would try doing is turning your round modifiers in to strips. You can simply flag them with foam core board or even by draping black cloth over them to try to control the light and make it more directional.
If I had your modifiers and had to shoot this, I would use the umbrellas as my rim/kickers and that Photo Flex as the main. I play around with the placement of the umbrellas first. Get them so they are getting the wrap around you want, then if needed, flag them on the inside.
Here is a quick mock up of what I mean:
If you'd like, I can try this setup for tomorrow's photo and post the results here. Let me know.
Alex your diagram just gave the idea of what I think I may do. My umbrellas have a removable black cover to make them into shoot thru. I will just remove half of the cover to help block some of the light coming back at the camera. I am half tempted to buy these cheaper strip boxes with grids on ebay, but I dont want to waste my money. I plan to use a variety of lights as the main. I even saw Joel run gaffers tape over the 7" reflector for the ABs and make it into like a really narrow snoot. Pretty cool stuff. I just ordered some grids for my ABs 7" reflectors to see if that should cut enough of the light. This thread is totally awesome! Thanks for all the help!
I've used the black covers to flag my umbrellas before so I can vouch that it will work. You'll get bounce back onto your background but since you're selecting him/her out, it doesn't matter.
I've used the black covers to flag my umbrellas before so I can vouch that it will work. You'll get bounce back onto your background but since you're selecting him/her out, it doesn't matter.
You know if push comes to shove I can always gaffer tape the shoot thru or whichever light modifier I choose to use. If I leave the back half (closest to the background) do you still think I will get light spill onto the background?
Check my Day 14 shot. That's the same gray backdrop I've been using. The green is coming from the shoot through umbrella I used as my kicker. Not all the light passes through the umbrella. You get some bounce back. Not a lot but you do.
Maybe I'm confused but what I understood is that you place the black cover over half of each umbrella. The half that is being flagged in my diagram. Now maybe you mean you'll place it over the inside of the umbrella. If that is the case, you shouldn't get any bounce.. at least not enough to be concerned with. I originally considered you placing it over the outside, so that half is shoot through and half is bounce. Then it would definitely spill onto the backdrop. The thing is though, that if you're planning to use a white backdrop, you could use the latter orientation to light it. Just depends on what you plan on doing.
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You have the lighting and ratios down so this is just for the posing. Of the three for the pose I like #3. The rest seem out of balance on her right side. Needed to bring the arm out more to create a broader base for that sweater. With the bright white on the should it seems as if she has no arm.
www.cameraone.biz
I don't see your point about the pose. Because the shape of the sweater is so wide on top, I automatically went when a pose where she wasn't square to the camera. Now I kind of see how that didn't work so well. No worries, more practice.
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What is the color (or name) of that background?
Marcelo
Thank you Marcelo. I really appreciate you guys putting up with this mega thread and continuing to look and sharing your feedback. It's really helped me a lot.
The background is a simple seamless paper 18% gray background. I don't recall the brand. It's actually the small 6' wide roll. I bought it on whim and didn't use it for a long time. I decided to try it and I absolute love it. You can do so much with it. Turn it black, make it white, it really saturates gels well. Very flexible backdrop.
I'm going to pick up 10' roll to give me more wiggle room in the next week or so. I just have to figure out how to get home in my Mini Cooper.
Moderator of the People and Go Figure forums
My Smug Site
So as I mentioned, tried something completely different this morning. I decided to ditch the softboxes and try some stuff with just the Alien Bees and the basic 7" reflector. We were a bit rushed today because Thursday's our cleaning lady comes bright and early. Add a grumpy wife to that and it's a recipe for not so happy photographer.
I went with a beauty lighting setup with this shot. I had the main and fill right in front of her, main above at 45° and fill below, just under her chin and aiming up. Hair light was on a boom aimed directly down. She was already grumpy and then when I flashed her right in the eyes, she got even grumpier. 3 shots and she was done. Just got up and walked away.
Honestly, I didn't think much of the shots at the time. All day, I thought I was coming home to 3 throwaway shots. I was quite surprised by the last frame I took. I personally think it came out awesome but I will wait to pass final judgment after I hear some comments.
3-Light Setup
Key Light: AB800 with 7" standard reflector & 40° grid, directly above at 45° set to just under f/8
Fill Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 20° grid, just below chin height set to f/5.6
Hair Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 30° grid, on boom over head set to f/5.6
Example of 7" reflector I used:
D700: 1/250 @ f/7.1 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 130mm
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That shot is great, but was the "from under"-shot the intent?
D800
16/2.8, f1.4G primes, f2.8 trio, 105/200 macro, SB900.
It never gets easier, you just get better.
Yes. The perspective was on purpose. And I'm not really below her. I'm right at her eye level or just a hair below. The plan was to have her tilt her head down just a tad but like I said, she wasn't really game today.
BTW, here is a slightly stylized edit. I desaturated it just a hair and added a little tiny bit of haze.
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D800
16/2.8, f1.4G primes, f2.8 trio, 105/200 macro, SB900.
It never gets easier, you just get better.
Go Shoot Something Already! - Flickr Photostream
Have you performed a few Random Acts of Parenting today?
www.cameraone.biz
She was really bothered by the flash from the strobes. I understand it's a much harder, concentrated light, but she said it was blinding and really uncomfortable. Is this normal? Did I maybe have the lights too close or positioned wrong? Maybe she's more sensitive to flash than the average person?
Any suggestions?
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Hurrell did the type of light your trying but I heard he owned an old movie theater and at times the lights were very far away, doesn't sound right but that is what I read once.
www.cameraone.biz
Yes. I researched Hurrell a while back and he did use a similar light setup. Although he used Fresnal lens hot lights and from what I also read, they were a bit of a distance away.
Moderator of the People and Go Figure forums
My Smug Site
Charles made a few suggestions for me to try with the setup I shot yesterday. He suggestion I swap the fill light with reflector and I modify the pose slightly. I tried just that today.
BTW, still using my gray background on these shots which illustrate how black you can get them by not lighting them.
3-Light Setup
Key Light: AB800 with 7" standard reflector & 30° grid, directly above at 45° set to just under f/8
Kicker Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 40° grid, behind and to camera left set to f/5.6
Hair Light: AB400 with 7" standard reflector & 20° grid, behind and to camera right set to f/4
D700: 1/250 @ f/7.1 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 102mm
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Question for you: you say you had the fill light under her chin shooting up... so why isn't it brighter under her chin than on her camera left shoulder? Just trying to figure out how you did this. I use a quasi-clamshell setup quite a lot (although with a reflector, and sometimes moved a tad towards the 45* angle instead of square on), but I haven't tried it with two lights.... you may have convinced me to try it
Diva... Dumb luck?
I did have the fill set to a height just under her chin. This just seemed right to me at the time. I wasn't follow some master plan I thoughtfully drew up. It was pointed up but only slightly, aiming at her lips. It had a 20° grid and was fairly close so the spread of the light was pretty concentrated. When I metered the lights, I did them one at a time and then I took a final reading with all the lights on.
When I metered the main, I took a reading at the center of the light, which was right around her forehead. I adjusted the power until this reading was at f/8. I then took another reading at her chin and it was f/5.6. Then another reading at her shoulder at about f/3.2.
I then turned the main off and metered the fill. Again, center reading reading first which I set to f/5.6. This was just around the upper lip area. Keep in mind, with the 20° grid, the light fall-off is really steep so the chin was probably about f/4. So the shoulder is a tad darker than the chin. It's just the relative contrast between the main and the fill on the face is about the same ratio as the relative contrast on the body so the chin and shoulder look to be at about the same f-stop. The light on her should is actually mostly coming from the main light.
Does that make sense.
BTW, these last two setups have really demonstrated to me the power of having a light meter. I've tried using the 7" reflectors with grids before and I always failed miserably. The lights were always either way too hot, with specular highlights or way underexposed. And this was with quite a bit of chimping. I took these shots without any additional adjustments to the light power after dialing in with the meter.
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Decided to use my umbrellas today to explore the difference in them from the other modifiers I've used. Umbrellas seem to be much more forgiving with light but it's also harder to isolate the light they emit. What I like though is that they throw a nice feathered, soft light.
2-Light Setup
Key Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera left metered at f/5.6
Fill Light - Large white round reflector almost directly in front
Kicker Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera right and behind, metered at f/4
D700: 1/250 @ f/5.6 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 110mm
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Always liked soft shadow edges.....yeah umbrellas and boxes.
www.cameraone.biz
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Same setup as Day 14 but I removed the green gel from the kicker.
2-Light Setup
Key Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera left metered at f/5.6
Fill Light - Large white round reflector almost directly in front
Kicker Light - AB400 w shoot through umbrella at camera right and behind, metered at f/4
D700: 1/250 @ f/5.6 ISO 100 | 70-200mm f/2.8: 135mm
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Go Shoot Something Already! - Flickr Photostream
Have you performed a few Random Acts of Parenting today?
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My Smug Site
Well, if you look at Grimes' setup, you'll notice that he uses the gridded box as kickers. He places them so he gets just enough wrap-around light to the sides so it just about kisses the outside of the eyes. I don't think not have grids will hurt you as much as the size and shape of your modifiers. You'll need to place them behind the subject so I suspect you'll be battling flare a bit using round modifiers. Maybe I'm wrong, never tried it.
What I would try doing is turning your round modifiers in to strips. You can simply flag them with foam core board or even by draping black cloth over them to try to control the light and make it more directional.
If I had your modifiers and had to shoot this, I would use the umbrellas as my rim/kickers and that Photo Flex as the main. I play around with the placement of the umbrellas first. Get them so they are getting the wrap around you want, then if needed, flag them on the inside.
Here is a quick mock up of what I mean:
If you'd like, I can try this setup for tomorrow's photo and post the results here. Let me know.
Moderator of the People and Go Figure forums
My Smug Site
Moderator of the People and Go Figure forums
My Smug Site
You know if push comes to shove I can always gaffer tape the shoot thru or whichever light modifier I choose to use. If I leave the back half (closest to the background) do you still think I will get light spill onto the background?
Maybe I'm confused but what I understood is that you place the black cover over half of each umbrella. The half that is being flagged in my diagram. Now maybe you mean you'll place it over the inside of the umbrella. If that is the case, you shouldn't get any bounce.. at least not enough to be concerned with. I originally considered you placing it over the outside, so that half is shoot through and half is bounce. Then it would definitely spill onto the backdrop. The thing is though, that if you're planning to use a white backdrop, you could use the latter orientation to light it. Just depends on what you plan on doing.
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