over time, several people have referred to the 'dailies'. What are they? Is it a specific forum or is it just a phrase to refer to when we post and image for critique?
over time, several people have referred to the 'dailies'. What are they? Is it a specific forum or is it just a phrase to refer to when we post and image for critique?
I really like the last one. Nice color schemes.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks.. ... The backgrounds of the 2 'light' images & Freedom of Religion images are photos I took. All the images are compilations from a challenge game called a Tennis Match I did some years ago. It was different than the challenges here, tho.
Jenn "Easier said than done, for me anyway. I'm a bit harder on myself than I should be, at times."
Jenn - I think we are all hard on ourselves. I am, but thatis what drives me.I don't think that anyone here just throws something together without a lot of thought and effort. Not if they want a good end result.
"I understand what you're saying.... but even we need to feel what it's like to win now and then because there will always be someone who is better. "
Wouldn't you rather win when you really deserve it? I would. I don't want to win when there are better entries than mine. That seems fake. One of these times, you just might be that one who is better. Don't assume that you'll never be the one. I'd rather win on merit than have everyone say "Let's vote for Sandi this time because she hasn't won yet".
"Actually, I didn't know because when I posted my third entry the comments from people said it was pretty good.. much better... etc. I mentioned I wasn't sure if it was too 'busy' or not, but no one said it was,, so I thought if ya'll said it was pretty good then it wasn't too busy."
That's encouragement. If people had told you that your entry was too busy, you would have felt just as you do now since you got the busy comment. I think the point is to encourage someone's idea once they have it, not trash it. I haven't seen anyone tell another person that they should start over with a whole other idea...they just try to help the person improve on the one they already have.
"Never heard of 'Dailies'... what is it?"
The link to the Dailies is posted in Sherstone's post. Basically, you post a picture 365 days in a row, if possible. I'm doing it as a commitment to myself, for myself. I don't care if I make the first page (most comments of the day) and I don't care if I don't get any comments at all. I'm not doing it for any reason other than to keep myself motivated, creative and learn in the process. I can't look through the shots every day (although I'd like to - not enough time), but when I do, I sometimes see some great work that inspires. There are some really talented people and I enjoy seeing different ideas and amazing shots. I was in the Dailies long before I came here. I was afraid to be here :hide.
Anyway, we're on to the next challenge. Put your thinking cap on, take 1,000 shots and work at it. That's what is great about the digitals - no expensive film to develop. That part is free.
How does a person become a member there? It looks like a gigantic place!
Click the Communities link in SmugMug's footer. Each will have text beside them saying join, invite only, or leave. Invite only means you'll need to finagle an invitation from the owner.
Wouldn't you rather win when you really deserve it? I would. I don't want to win when there are better entries than mine. That seems fake. One of these times, you just might be that one who is better. Don't assume that you'll never be the one. I'd rather win on merit than have everyone say "Let's vote for Sandi this time because she hasn't won yet".
I dunno ... there is always someone who will have more skill, or more 'whatever'. Do you like to play games? Card games, or board games.. stuff like that? I do. I like games where it takes skill to win... you learn the game, the rules, and the goal and you keep playing until you figure it out and you win. It's easy to know your skill level with games like that... but I really don't like games of chance where luck or some other similar factor determines the outcome. It's hard to know if you are good at it or if you are just lucky. Everyone who entered the alphabet challenge did wonderful, I thought. But, the outcome has nothing to do with skill level or effort.... it has more to do with personal taste of those doing the judging and voting. That's in the same category as games of chance .. for me anyway... Nothing wrong with games of chance ... it's just something I'm not very good at dealing with it... I tend to revert back to "tell me what you want so I can produce it!" I get frustrated... Sometimes, I want to quit trying, too, because I don't know how to do better since there isn't a specific goal to aim for... but that's artistic expression for ya, I guess.
That's encouragement. If people had told you that your entry was too busy, you would have felt just as you do now since you got the busy comment. I think the point is to encourage someone's idea once they have it, not trash it. I haven't seen anyone tell another person that they should start over with a whole other idea...they just try to help the person improve on the one they already have.
The link to the Dailies is posted in Sherstone's post. Basically, you post a picture 365 days in a row, if possible...... Anyway, we're on to the next challenge. Put your thinking cap on, take 1,000 shots and work at it. That's what is great about the digitals - no expensive film to develop. That part is free.
I don't think I could do an image every day for 365 days in a row. I don't take that many pictures. hahaha Maybe in the near future after my daughters wedding is over. She's getting married next week.
btw... I am thinking about the next challenge... haven't got any solid ideas yet, tho.
... But, the outcome has nothing to do with skill level or effort. ...
This is where I will disagree very loudly. Yes there is some degree of chance, chance that you catch the eye of the two judges for a specific round. Why I disagree is that if the outcome has nothing to do with skill and effort then why do we see consistently high caliber finalists in the top five? I will answer that. We see the deserving winners because the artists behind those images have usually practiced their craft and have honed their skills to a point where they are very good at taking a theme and producing a memorable image.
The above statement does not reduce the other finalists or all the other entrants for that matter to a lower level, what it means is that we are all on a journey and some of us are farther down the path than others. If we stick to the path and do not stray, every single traveler will eventually find their destination no matter how many rocks, pot holes, doors, blockades or distractions are thrown into the mix.
I am always highly impressed with the amazing talent that chooses to compete in these challenges and I am very thankful that as a community we all try and help each other achieve that talent.
Where any degree of 'chance' exists, it takes away from skill and adds an unknown factor where people can't compete effectively because there is no way to prepare to meet that unknown. If we know, for example, what a judge likes, then we all can prepare on equal ground. For me, I have a problem with knowing how to improve my final image when personal likes/dislikes enter into the judging mix. It's not simply about skill... it's also about the judges personal likes and dislikes and even how they perceive the art. That produces frustration in me simply because I am learning from what everyone else is doing and trying to figure it out on my own what I'm doing wrong vs. what others do right. Adding to that, I question my own ability to understand what others see as worthy art because I don't understand and can't prepare for the unknown 'chance' factor in being judged.
Maybe this example will clarify what I'm stumbling around to say... Some years ago I was a waittress in a steak restaraunt. I was in training and my boss told me to "speed it up" or I would lose my job. I asked him what I could do to "speed it up", and he told me to "figure it out". Well, I hadn't ever been a waittress in a steak house before and didn't know what I was doing that was considered to be too slow in order to fix it so I could "speed it up". The boss knew what he wanted and what he was looking for, but I had no idea what he wanted or how to get there. That was the 'chance' factor... no specific rule to follow so I could meet it.
I'm not disagreeing with you on deserving winners skills or how hard they work. It seems to me everyone works hard and deserves that acknowledgement. I don't know what to do to improve and I'm just guessing at this point which is frustrating trying to meet a goal that isn't necessarily a concrete goal. I didn't think I would feel like this when I entered the challenge... which led to my comment about 'maybe I should stick to posting close-ups'.... Sorry to be so verbal... I'm thinking about what I might could do for the next challenge, but I'm still unsure of what direction to go since I'm not sure what I did wrong in the first one.
This is where I will disagree very loudly. Yes there is some degree of chance, chance that you catch the eye of the two judges for a specific round. Why I disagree is that if the outcome has nothing to do with skill and effort then why do we see consistently high caliber finalists in the top five? I will answer that. We see the deserving winners because the artists behind those images have usually practiced their craft and have honed their skills to a point where they are very good at taking a theme and producing a memorable image.
The above statement does not reduce the other finalists or all the other entrants for that matter to a lower level, what it means is that we are all on a journey and some of us are farther down the path than others. If we stick to the path and do not stray, every single traveler will eventually find their destination no matter how many rocks, pot holes, doors, blockades or distractions are thrown into the mix.
I am always highly impressed with the amazing talent that chooses to compete in these challenges and I am very thankful that as a community we all try and help each other achieve that talent.
Your stance is very clear. Your example while it makes sense is not a direct comparison to the challenges that are here. We did not hire you, you are not getting paid, and I am not about to fire you for lack of speed or quality of pixels
Show me a photo or art contest where the human element of judging does not exist. The challenges are here to do exactly that, challenge you. If it was easy and so well defined that we all shot the same thing it would be darn boring. I am proud to be part of a group that fosters learning, social interaction and support for creativity. Myself and many others started this whole conversation and I will finish now by saying the same thing; it is not all about winning here. It is about the journey to that goal and the learning that happens along the road. Your words only tell me that you are more concerned with the win then learning how to get there.
I also disagree with the idea that the outcome of these challenges has nothing to do with skill. While it is true that a great idea will catch the judge's, and the spectators', eye, when it comes to judging for the most part these fellows sit back and reason beyond their initial reaction to an image. I know because it is pretty rarely that I put a lot of effort into finishing my images, and I usually get pretty much what I expect, comments that my idea was great, but that it just didn't stand up to the competition at hand. While I did have a lot of hope for one recent image where I did put a lot of effort into it, the competition was simply just that much better!
Anyone partaking in here might just examine why they are doing it, and if you aren't getting anything out of it, change your focus or just move on!
You're right - there is no concrete goal: art (all kinds, all media) is subjective. The end. There is never going to be a way to fulfill an artistic brief to a specific goal and know that it is "right" or "wrong" or that "nobody will like it" or "everybody will like it". Only when you learn to enjoy (and love) the *process* of creating your own work for its *own* sake will you be able to find satisfaction in the process. Remember too: artists through the ages have fought for their vision against the odds (Renoir and Monet spring to mind - Salon des Refuses, anybody?!)
Artists, pretty much have to learn to love the process of creation (the things they have control over) rather than the outcome of how something is received (over which they usually have no control).
You can control your skill (by learning more and improving). You can get a general feel for how other people view your work (by posting shots for comments and feedback). What you CAN'T control is how the judges will select their choices, and how other members will vote. The sooner you learn to live with that simple fact, the more you'll enjoy this process!
Btw, as I was told many years ago when I was a competitive equestrienne: It's kind of like ice cream. Sometimes the judge wants chocolate. You can provide him/her with the very best strawberry the world has ever known, and that judge will pick any version of chocolate over your strawberry. It doesn't mean strawberry is bad... just that they wanted chocolate.
For quite a few discussions on this subject, search the phrase "blind judges" (yes, it's a joke, but it came up in several threads so it will be an easy way to pull up those exchanges). You'll find much interesting food for thought.
Your stance is very clear. Your example while it makes sense is not a direct comparison to the challenges that are here. We did not hire you, you are not getting paid, and I am not about to fire you for lack of speed or quality of pixels
My example is simply to explain how I feel and why. If it's clear, then you should understand where I'm coming from now when I feel frustrated or discouraged. :ivar
I'm happy you don't want to fire me.
Your words only tell me that you are more concerned with the win then learning how to get there.
Of course I would like to win. Winning is an indicator that I've reached a goal and have achieved what I set out to do. I'm not so noble as to just enter without the idea that I could win (there is a prize, afterall), and I don't believe anyone who enters doesn't want to win, and doesn't share some amount of disappointment like I feel when they don't win. That's part of the point of entering any contest or challenge and one motivating factor, but it's not the only motivating factor. I want to learn how to be good at it, learn how to get from where I'm at now to where winners are at, learn from you guys, and learn how to use my camera better. Wanting to win is not a bad thing... it's a goal because there is a very real prize.
Anyone partaking in here might just examine why they are doing it, and if you aren't getting anything out of it, change your focus or just move on!
I think my focus is just fine. Many people just smile and never express their disappointment or why they are disappointed. It helps me to talk about it, imo.
Only when you learn to enjoy (and love) the *process* of creating your own work for its *own* sake will you be able to find satisfaction in the process.
Oh I already love creating my own work. Right now I'm learning about this place and how the process works here, and how images are judged and what ya'll view as good vs great. <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/wings.gif" border="0" alt="" >
What you CAN'T control is how the judges will select their choices, and how other members will vote. The sooner you learn to live with that simple fact, the more you'll enjoy this process!
... and that is the frustrating part that I'm dealing with at the moment. For example ... why people would tell me my image is very good, and then not also put it in their personal top 10. <shrugs> I'm thinking they didn't tell me the truth about my image to begin with .. it really wasn't 'very good'.
I think my focus is just fine. Many people just smile and never express their disappointment or why they are disappointed. It helps me to talk about it, imo.
Well, express away, but don't GO away.. I've been here long enough to see people go into disillusionment and express themselves plenty, but now they are thriving, and winning to boot..
... and that is the frustrating part that I'm dealing with at the moment. For example ... why people would tell me my image is very good, and then not also put it in their personal top 10. <shrugs> I'm thinking they didn't tell me the truth about my image to begin with .. it really wasn't 'very good'.
Just because somebody doesn't put yours in their personal top 10 - even though they liked it - doesn't mean YOURS WAS BAD. It means (to torture the metaphor a bit further) you were strawberry. When they assessed it - in isolation, for feedback, on its own terms, as a version of strawberry -they really liked it. But their personal top 10 was still all chocolate.
Go back to my first statement: art is subjective. The End. That's the first concept you need to come to terms with, IMO <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >
Well, express away, but don't GO away.. I've been here long enough to see people go into disillusionment and express themselves plenty, but now they are thriving, and winning to boot..
Thanks! You could have said "go away and shut up" but you didn't.
Just because somebody doesn't put yours in their personal top 10 - even though they liked it - doesn't mean YOURS WAS BAD. It means (to torture the metaphor a bit further) you were strawberry. When they assessed it - in isolation, for feedback, on its own terms, as a version of strawberry -they really liked it. But their personal top 10 was still all chocolate.
Go back to my first statement: art is subjective. The End. That's the first concept you need to come to terms with, IMO
BUT I'm CHOCOLATE!! I swear it's my favorite flavor of ice cream. hahaaaaaha
A "hoofclix" is when a horse kicks the habit, then jumps up to click it's hind hooves, or the plural thereof, or a picture of the horse in such act... . I'm an equestrian photographer, amongst other things (tried to be a golf ball for much of my life, but found nothing but pain in it..) and HoofClix is the name of my business..
A "hoofclix" is when a horse kicks the habit, then jumps up to click it's hind hooves, or the plural thereof, or a picture of the horse in such act... . I'm an equestrian photographer, amongst other things (tried to be a golf ball for much of my life, but found nothing but pain in it..) and HoofClix is the name of my business..
ahh... cool .. I took a look at your website.. the page that had the slideshow going on it. I already have a few favorites of those shots I saw... aside from all the horse photos, there was one winter shot looking across a pond or lake that was quite amazing. Nice stuff.
ahh... cool .. I took a look at your website.. the page that had the slideshow going on it. I already have a few favorites of those shots I saw... aside from all the horse photos, there was one winter shot looking across a pond or lake that was quite amazing. Nice stuff.
btw.. nice to meet you.
That winter shot over the lake was basically turned into a pullout centerfold for one of this past March's issues of The Chronicle of the Horse! In Augusta GA to boot I was quite fortunate to be there at a show when a freak storm came in overnight. Nice to meet you too..
Jenn, I can understand where you are coming from.
I was an IT Manager for nigh on 20 years and was frequently described as logical and goal oriented. I took the results people wanted and came up with a solution that met or exceeded those requirements. Everything I worked on had a set of objective measures and could be deemed a success or a failure based on known quantifiable criteria.
When I got into photography, rather than taking snapshots, I had to unlearn the desire (need) for quantifiable success criteria and learn to understand (and accept) the subjective nature of art appreciation. This was not an easy process and I found myself disheartened on any number of occasions. However I persevered and by studying critiques & comments against a whole range of images and not just my own I started to gain an insight into how I could improve my own work.
I am still frequently surprised by which images do/do not appeal to people across the entire dgrin spectrum not just in challenges. I have seen things (not my own) I felt were great get absolutely no response, while others that I find lacking (not just technically) touch a chord and gain significant praise.
I've learnt to produce what I think works and let others apply their own views without being overly worried. People either like what I produce or they don't. The thing about hanging out in the various forums is that over time you do get a sense of what appeals to other people and they will guide you in improving your art.
Stick with it, us goal oriented types have to work at art appreciation.
Jenn, I can understand where you are coming from.
I was an IT Manager for nigh on 20 years and was frequently described as logical and goal oriented. I took the results people wanted and came up with a solution that met or exceeded those requirements. Everything I worked on had a set of objective measures and could be deemed a success or a failure based on known quantifiable criteria.
YES! That's my life .... People tell me what they want and that's what I create.
When I got into photography, rather than taking snapshots, I had to unlearn the desire (need) for quantifiable success criteria and learn to understand (and accept) the subjective nature of art appreciation. This was not an easy process and I found myself disheartened on any number of occasions. However I persevered and by studying critiques & comments against a whole range of images and not just my own I started to gain an insight into how I could improve my own work.
I've had my digital camera for like 3 or 4 years now, and I've just used it mostly for taking fall and spring photos when the colors are showing up everywhere.. sometimes winter shots, too, if I can find something of interest like ice or snow. I just want to get better at this. It's like something is inside of me that is ready to burst out of me, and I can't slow it down.
I am still frequently surprised by which images do/do not appeal to people across the entire dgrin spectrum not just in challenges. I have seen things (not my own) I felt were great get absolutely no response, while others that I find lacking (not just technically) touch a chord and gain significant praise.
I've learnt to produce what I think works and let others apply their own views without being overly worried. People either like what I produce or they don't. The thing about hanging out in the various forums is that over time you do get a sense of what appeals to other people and they will guide you in improving your art.
I need to find something in the middle that I can live with... something I love and something other people will enjoy, too.
Just because somebody doesn't put yours in their personal top 10 - even though they liked it - doesn't mean YOURS WAS BAD. It means (to torture the metaphor a bit further) you were strawberry. When they assessed it - in isolation, for feedback, on its own terms, as a version of strawberry -they really liked it. But their personal top 10 was still all chocolate.
Go back to my first statement: art is subjective. The End. That's the first concept you need to come to terms with, IMO
I think that Divamum puts words together to describe pre-feedback exactly the way I view it to.
I have been getting emails for the last two days with new messages in this thread so I though maybe I better take a look.
I don't think anyone can understand what it's like for a judge until they are the one in that seat. I had no idea how difficult it was going to be but I did my best. I'll do even better the next time.
BTW: I have been in the dailies for several years now. It's not absolute that you have to post ever day it just helps to keep you motivated to shoot something everyday. I would see images on there and wonder how they did it so I would try. I would try something that maybe I wouldn't have before or I would see something and say I know I can do that better so I would try. It has really taught me a lot. I met two wonderful people on the dailies that have helped me become a better photographer. I still have tons to learn and explore.
I think that Divamum puts words together to describe pre-feedback exactly the way I view it to.
I have been getting emails for the last two days with new messages in this thread so I though maybe I better take a look.
I don't think anyone can understand what it's like for a judge until they are the one in that seat. I had no idea how difficult it was going to be but I did my best. I'll do even better the next time.
BTW: I have been in the dailies for several years now. It's not absolute that you have to post ever day it just helps to keep you motivated to shoot something everyday. I would see images on there and wonder how they did it so I would try. I would try something that maybe I wouldn't have before or I would see something and say I know I can do that better so I would try. It has really taught me a lot. I met two wonderful people on the dailies that have helped me become a better photographer. I still have tons to learn and explore.
Peace always, gail
If I keep getting 'strawberry' when everyone else wants chocolate... my luck is that I switch to chocolate and then everyone decides they want strawberry. What looks good to me doesn't look good to other people and vice versa, and I REALLY have a hard time with wanting to critique anyone because what I see as good or bad isn't what someone else might see.
For example...(dumb questions follow) the photos of the ducks AndMan did for innocence ... I love photos like that. I was wondering tho.. is it that simple to get a photo that represents innocence that people like? Take a photo of animals? or take photos of kids? :photo The obvious is what people like? I could take a photo of my collie looking at a baby toy, or something similar if that is what people want to see that represents innocence.
What I see as representative of either innocence or knowledge isn't what others see, so I'm kind of at a loss. If I set up an image as other people suggest, is it still my work? Maybe these questions have been asked before. I don't really have time to search out past threads looking for answers since I am getting ready for a wedding, but I also want to give this a try, too.
What looks good to me doesn't look good to other people and vice versa, and I REALLY have a hard time with wanting to critique anyone because what I see as good or bad isn't what someone else might see.
If you are taking photos for money, then this should matter to you quite a bit. What other people like is what they will pay for. If you are taking photos for pleasure, then the only thing that matters is that you like them.
...is it that simple to get a photo that represents innocence that people like? Take a photo of animals? or take photos of kids?
Yes. It can be just that simple. If you look through the gallery of previous challenge winning photos, you will see photos that are elaborate post-processing creations, and you will see photos are simply well-composed, well-lit SOOC shots. The technical component has to be there. Then it becomes a matter of whether your "strawberry" take on a theme is the flavor of the month for everyone else. But there's too much of the subjective here to write too much meaning into the outcome. I dare say that if Ansel Adams were participating in these challenges, he would not win many of them.
Then it becomes a matter of whether your "strawberry" take on a theme is the flavor of the month for everyone else. But there's too much of the subjective here to write too much meaning into the outcome. I dare say that if Ansel Adams were participating in these challenges, he would not win many of them.
I've been reading some of the manual that comes with my camera and along with the strawberry/chocolate flavor of the month thing.... I'm even more confused, now. I don't even know where to begin at this point.
Comments
When you come to a door... walk through it.
If it's locked... find an open window.
This is the dailies.
When you come to a door... walk through it.
If it's locked... find an open window.
Thanks..
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
How does a person become a member there? It looks like a gigantic place!
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
"Easier said than done, for me anyway. I'm a bit harder on myself than I should be, at times."
Jenn - I think we are all hard on ourselves. I am, but thatis what drives me.I don't think that anyone here just throws something together without a lot of thought and effort. Not if they want a good end result.
"I understand what you're saying.... but even we need to feel what it's like to win now and then because there will always be someone who is better.
Wouldn't you rather win when you really deserve it? I would. I don't want to win when there are better entries than mine. That seems fake. One of these times, you just might be that one who is better. Don't assume that you'll never be the one. I'd rather win on merit than have everyone say "Let's vote for Sandi this time because she hasn't won yet".
"Actually, I didn't know because when I posted my third entry the comments from people said it was pretty good.. much better... etc. I mentioned I wasn't sure if it was too 'busy' or not, but no one said it was,, so I thought if ya'll said it was pretty good then it wasn't too busy."
That's encouragement. If people had told you that your entry was too busy, you would have felt just as you do now since you got the busy comment. I think the point is to encourage someone's idea once they have it, not trash it. I haven't seen anyone tell another person that they should start over with a whole other idea...they just try to help the person improve on the one they already have.
"Never heard of 'Dailies'... what is it?"
The link to the Dailies is posted in Sherstone's post. Basically, you post a picture 365 days in a row, if possible. I'm doing it as a commitment to myself, for myself. I don't care if I make the first page (most comments of the day) and I don't care if I don't get any comments at all. I'm not doing it for any reason other than to keep myself motivated, creative and learn in the process. I can't look through the shots every day (although I'd like to - not enough time), but when I do, I sometimes see some great work that inspires. There are some really talented people and I enjoy seeing different ideas and amazing shots. I was in the Dailies long before I came here. I was afraid to be here :hide.
Anyway, we're on to the next challenge. Put your thinking cap on, take 1,000 shots and work at it. That's what is great about the digitals - no expensive film to develop. That part is free.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
Click the Communities link in SmugMug's footer. Each will have text beside them saying join, invite only, or leave. Invite only means you'll need to finagle an invitation from the owner.
If I could tell the story in words, I wouldn't need to lug around a camera. ~Lewis Hine
http://sandizphotos-seascapes.smugmug.com/
I dunno ... there is always someone who will have more skill, or more 'whatever'.
I understand what you're saying.
I don't think I could do an image every day for 365 days in a row.
btw... I am thinking about the next challenge... haven't got any solid ideas yet, tho.
Panasonic Lumix 10x DMC-TZ3 :photo
Leica Mega O.I.S./28mm WIDE :smile6
This is where I will disagree very loudly. Yes there is some degree of chance, chance that you catch the eye of the two judges for a specific round. Why I disagree is that if the outcome has nothing to do with skill and effort then why do we see consistently high caliber finalists in the top five? I will answer that. We see the deserving winners because the artists behind those images have usually practiced their craft and have honed their skills to a point where they are very good at taking a theme and producing a memorable image.
The above statement does not reduce the other finalists or all the other entrants for that matter to a lower level, what it means is that we are all on a journey and some of us are farther down the path than others. If we stick to the path and do not stray, every single traveler will eventually find their destination no matter how many rocks, pot holes, doors, blockades or distractions are thrown into the mix.
I am always highly impressed with the amazing talent that chooses to compete in these challenges and I am very thankful that as a community we all try and help each other achieve that talent.
Maybe this example will clarify what I'm stumbling around to say... Some years ago I was a waittress in a steak restaraunt. I was in training and my boss told me to "speed it up" or I would lose my job. I asked him what I could do to "speed it up", and he told me to "figure it out". Well, I hadn't ever been a waittress in a steak house before and didn't know what I was doing that was considered to be too slow in order to fix it so I could "speed it up". The boss knew what he wanted and what he was looking for, but I had no idea what he wanted or how to get there. That was the 'chance' factor... no specific rule to follow so I could meet it.
I'm not disagreeing with you on deserving winners skills or how hard they work. It seems to me everyone works hard and deserves that acknowledgement. I don't know what to do to improve and I'm just guessing at this point which is frustrating trying to meet a goal that isn't necessarily a concrete goal. I didn't think I would feel like this when I entered the challenge... which led to my comment about 'maybe I should stick to posting close-ups'.... Sorry to be so verbal... I'm thinking about what I might could do for the next challenge, but I'm still unsure of what direction to go since I'm not sure what I did wrong in the first one.
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Show me a photo or art contest where the human element of judging does not exist. The challenges are here to do exactly that, challenge you. If it was easy and so well defined that we all shot the same thing it would be darn boring. I am proud to be part of a group that fosters learning, social interaction and support for creativity. Myself and many others started this whole conversation and I will finish now by saying the same thing; it is not all about winning here. It is about the journey to that goal and the learning that happens along the road. Your words only tell me that you are more concerned with the win then learning how to get there.
I also disagree with the idea that the outcome of these challenges has nothing to do with skill. While it is true that a great idea will catch the judge's, and the spectators', eye, when it comes to judging for the most part these fellows sit back and reason beyond their initial reaction to an image. I know because it is pretty rarely that I put a lot of effort into finishing my images, and I usually get pretty much what I expect, comments that my idea was great, but that it just didn't stand up to the competition at hand. While I did have a lot of hope for one recent image where I did put a lot of effort into it, the competition was simply just that much better!
Anyone partaking in here might just examine why they are doing it, and if you aren't getting anything out of it, change your focus or just move on!
:deadhorse
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Artists, pretty much have to learn to love the process of creation (the things they have control over) rather than the outcome of how something is received (over which they usually have no control).
You can control your skill (by learning more and improving). You can get a general feel for how other people view your work (by posting shots for comments and feedback). What you CAN'T control is how the judges will select their choices, and how other members will vote. The sooner you learn to live with that simple fact, the more you'll enjoy this process!
Btw, as I was told many years ago when I was a competitive equestrienne: It's kind of like ice cream. Sometimes the judge wants chocolate. You can provide him/her with the very best strawberry the world has ever known, and that judge will pick any version of chocolate over your strawberry. It doesn't mean strawberry is bad... just that they wanted chocolate.
For quite a few discussions on this subject, search the phrase "blind judges" (yes, it's a joke, but it came up in several threads so it will be an easy way to pull up those exchanges). You'll find much interesting food for thought.
I'm happy you don't want to fire me.
Of course I would like to win.
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I didn't say that it did .. I said, "It's not simply about skill... "
I think my focus is just fine. Many people just smile and never express their disappointment or why they are disappointed. It helps me to talk about it, imo.
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... and that is the frustrating part that I'm dealing with at the moment. For example ... why people would tell me my image is very good, and then not also put it in their personal top 10. <shrugs> I'm thinking they didn't tell me the truth about my image to begin with .. it really wasn't 'very good'.
btw .. I'm not fond of strawberry ice cream, either.. Chocolate is my favorite! <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/mwink.gif" border="0" alt="" >
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Well, express away, but don't GO away.. I've been here long enough to see people go into disillusionment and express themselves plenty, but now they are thriving, and winning to boot..
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Just because somebody doesn't put yours in their personal top 10 - even though they liked it - doesn't mean YOURS WAS BAD. It means (to torture the metaphor a bit further) you were strawberry.
Go back to my first statement: art is subjective. The End. That's the first concept you need to come to terms with, IMO <img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >
btw ... what is a 'hoofclix'?
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BUT I'm CHOCOLATE!! I swear it's my favorite flavor of ice cream. hahaaaaaha
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www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
ahh... cool .. I took a look at your website.. the page that had the slideshow going on it. I already have a few favorites of those shots I saw... aside from all the horse photos, there was one winter shot looking across a pond or lake that was quite amazing. Nice stuff.
btw.. nice to meet you.
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www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
I was an IT Manager for nigh on 20 years and was frequently described as logical and goal oriented. I took the results people wanted and came up with a solution that met or exceeded those requirements. Everything I worked on had a set of objective measures and could be deemed a success or a failure based on known quantifiable criteria.
When I got into photography, rather than taking snapshots, I had to unlearn the desire (need) for quantifiable success criteria and learn to understand (and accept) the subjective nature of art appreciation. This was not an easy process and I found myself disheartened on any number of occasions. However I persevered and by studying critiques & comments against a whole range of images and not just my own I started to gain an insight into how I could improve my own work.
I am still frequently surprised by which images do/do not appeal to people across the entire dgrin spectrum not just in challenges. I have seen things (not my own) I felt were great get absolutely no response, while others that I find lacking (not just technically) touch a chord and gain significant praise.
I've learnt to produce what I think works and let others apply their own views without being overly worried. People either like what I produce or they don't. The thing about hanging out in the various forums is that over time you do get a sense of what appeals to other people and they will guide you in improving your art.
Stick with it, us goal oriented types have to work at art appreciation.
www.andmanphotography.com
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"Landscape photography is the supreme test of the photographer - and often the supreme disappointment." Ansel Adams
I've had my digital camera for like 3 or 4 years now, and I've just used it mostly for taking fall and spring photos when the colors are showing up everywhere.. sometimes winter shots, too, if I can find something of interest like ice or snow. I just want to get better at this. It's like something is inside of me that is ready to burst out of me, and I can't slow it down.
yeah ... I understand what you're saying.
I need to find something in the middle that I can live with... something I love and something other people will enjoy, too.
thanks for understanding...
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I think that Divamum puts words together to describe pre-feedback exactly the way I view it to.
I have been getting emails for the last two days with new messages in this thread so I though maybe I better take a look.
I don't think anyone can understand what it's like for a judge until they are the one in that seat. I had no idea how difficult it was going to be but I did my best. I'll do even better the next time.
BTW: I have been in the dailies for several years now. It's not absolute that you have to post ever day it just helps to keep you motivated to shoot something everyday. I would see images on there and wonder how they did it so I would try. I would try something that maybe I wouldn't have before or I would see something and say I know I can do that better so I would try. It has really taught me a lot. I met two wonderful people on the dailies that have helped me become a better photographer. I still have tons to learn and explore.
Peace always, gail
For example...(dumb questions follow)
What I see as representative of either innocence or knowledge isn't what others see, so I'm kind of at a loss. If I set up an image as other people suggest, is it still my work?
thanks for any input. :oogle
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If you are taking photos for money, then this should matter to you quite a bit. What other people like is what they will pay for. If you are taking photos for pleasure, then the only thing that matters is that you like them.
Yes. It can be just that simple. If you look through the gallery of previous challenge winning photos, you will see photos that are elaborate post-processing creations, and you will see photos are simply well-composed, well-lit SOOC shots. The technical component has to be there. Then it becomes a matter of whether your "strawberry" take on a theme is the flavor of the month for everyone else. But there's too much of the subjective here to write too much meaning into the outcome. I dare say that if Ansel Adams were participating in these challenges, he would not win many of them.
ackdoc.com
That is a great line, and VERY TRUE
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