They look so good, I can practically taste them...
Quick question - that panel on the right looks nice for printing and giving to people. Is there an easy "print this coupon" feature, or is that for 2.0?
@oliverbogler: i'm betting that is the "coupon" that is available after you enter the info...you can then make available for printing or emailing...but that's just a guess...
They look so good, I can practically taste them...
Quick question - that panel on the right looks nice for printing and giving to people. Is there an easy "print this coupon" feature, or is that for 2.0?
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
great minds . thats something we'd like to offer in a later release.
How long has it been since this thread started?
Frankly, sometimes I feel like a sucker who has been persuaded to stick around waiting for coupons instead of getting on with my business and Andy's posts only seem to serve as lulling letters.
I'm so sorry I really don't know any other way to better explain what's going on here. I'm sorry you're upset, I'm sorry we're taking longer than we expected, and I'm sorry we had a second major bump in the road with this infrastructure work.
Frankly, sometimes I feel like a sucker who has been persuaded to stick around waiting for coupons instead of getting on with my business and Andy's posts only seem to serve as lulling letters.
I'm so sorry I really don't know any other way to better explain what's going on here. I'm sorry you're upset, I'm sorry we're taking longer than we expected, and I'm sorry we had a second major bump in the road with this infrastructure work.
Why don't we all get to work, okay
If it's been that big of an issue, why haven't you made the business decision to move and reap the profits of a better system? At one point, I was at a real crux with the upload situation at SM and seriously looked at EM (to the point I signed up) because they had FTP uploading. I didn't have much time to play with it, and by the time I did, SM had a decent uploader than could multi-thread and started adding videos, which was another problem I had to solve. So I let my EM account lapse.
Because each of our business needs are different and SM is a solution trying the best to the best for everyone and fulfill its own financial goals, there will always be issues and problems. The new uploader has re-introduced an uploading issue for me I haven't had to deal with in years. I've even put $500 up of my own money for a developer to make an FTP to SM bridge to permanently solve my problem, but nothing. It's just something I have to live with because if I solve this problem by going with someone else, I create other problems that are solved by just using SM.
In the end, it comes down to the money, and if not having coupons is literally killing your business, then you've already been here too long. If it's not, then it's just another one of the annoyances that comes from using a product that isn't custom to your business. I waiting a long time for video, and was looking at other solutions, when SM finally introduced it. But I'm still waiting for watermarking on videos...just one of those tradeoffs...
But I'm still waiting for watermarking on videos...just one of those tradeoffs...
http://www.videowatermarkfactory.com/ this sure sounds like an expensive (Processing-wise) thing for us to do when we create video display copies - why not use a tool and do it locally if you really need watermarked video?
http://www.videowatermarkfactory.com/ this sure sounds like an expensive (Processing-wise) thing for us to do when we create video display copies - why not use a tool and do it locally if you really need watermarked video?
Thank you for the link Andy. I didn't realize such a stand-alone program existed. I know it's a terribly processor-intensive thing to watermark videos. Converting them is bad enough.
For me, watermarking isn't as badly needed as the speed of publishing, so I've just disabled saving videos from the gallery. It would take me even more time than SM to do the watermarking, and then I'd have to upload. That would put me well outside of my 72 hour publishing time frame.
I'm just waiting for the day when the processor power comes available enough that SM can provide video watermarking. I didn't think custom watermarks would come, but they did. I didn't think video would ever come, but it did. I look forward to the surprise announcement that video watermarks are here.
Maybe you need to get out more... take some pictures... have some fun...
...or as I recall from 'The Man From Snowy River': "Have another beer, have two... broaden your mind!"
Maybe you need to get out more... take some pictures... have some fun...
...or as I recall from 'The Man From Snowy River': "Have another beer, have two... broaden your mind!"
Sorry if the Lulling Letter link was not clear enough.
A lulling letter is "designed to lull the victims into a false sense of security, postpone their ultimate complaint to the authorities, and therefore make apprehension of the defendants less likely."
Now, tell me exactly how long this thread has been going on and then tell me if I am the crazy one for being upset or you are for being a happy camper. This thread is in the "Pro Sales Support" forum, no? I would think most pros would like to sell coupons and packages. Almost every pro I know uses them. So, I am not the only pro who is dissatisfied with the lack of progress. Why haven't I left? I am not sure. But, the incentive to stay is waning.
So, I am not the only pro who is dissatisfied with the lack of progress. Why haven't I left? I am not sure. But, the incentive to stay is waning.
I do not know what else to tell you Tim - we're giving status updates, showing screenshots, the developer is answering questions - we're getting closer. There's no lulling going on here, we don't like this in the same way you don't. Do you think I like reading posts like yours?
Sorry if the Lulling Letter link was not clear enough.
A lulling letter is "designed to lull the victims into a false sense of security, postpone their ultimate complaint to the authorities, and therefore make apprehension of the defendants less likely."
I don't believe you're actually so astoundingly stupid as to believe that Smugmug is committing fraud, so I'm left to the conclusion that you're just a sad provocateur. Either way, you give us no reason to lend your posts any credence.
Just keep drinking the Kool Aid Cindy and tell your self that everything is great.
Sorry if the Lulling Letter link was not clear enough.
A lulling letter is "designed to lull the victims into a false sense of security, postpone their ultimate complaint to the authorities, and therefore make apprehension of the defendants less likely."
Now, tell me exactly how long this thread has been going on and then tell me if I am the crazy one for being upset or you are for being a happy camper. This thread is in the "Pro Sales Support" forum, no? I would think most pros would like to sell coupons and packages. Almost every pro I know uses them. So, I am not the only pro who is dissatisfied with the lack of progress. Why haven't I left? I am not sure. But, the incentive to stay is waning.
Disclaimer: I am not SmugMug. Nor am I associated with SmugMug in any way other than as being a very satisfied customer (OK, so I've partaken of the koolaide - whatta yo' gonna do? ). My only insight into SmugMug S/W methods, policies, and practices are as a software engineer of some 30 years experience.
OK - I'll bite - You're crazy!
I am sooooo not understanding what everyone is complaining about!
:soapbox
Please perceive:
So SmugMug (hereafter, SM) "announced" the pending arrival of coupons et al some time ago. They gave you warning so you could re-engineer your business to better make use of this feature. You would rather they just dump it in your lap as an feit accompli? (Is that even spelled right?)
Software changes/development don't happen over-night. If they did, they would be worth about what they cost (costs being measured both in terms of time and the $$$ to pay for the infrastructure and people to bring it all together). Remember the quality triangle: cheap, quick, good. Pick any two, but you can't have all three; it just doesn't work that way.
Priorities - Maybe SM could have re-arranged priorities to get the coupons out sooner. I don't know, I'm not privy to their business discussions/decisions. What I do know is that building on a foundation of sand is VERY, VERY, VERY expensive. It falls well within the category of "You can pay me now or ... pay me later." If SM were to have rolled out coupons, say, last fall before they had the infrastructure in place to properly support it ... well, where do you think we would be right now? Cussing and discussing the, probably much increased, down-times we would be experiencing because SM didn't (under this hypothetical scenario) get all their ducks lined up in the proper order.
Hmmm ... well maybe SM could have hired on twice the number of sorcerers to handle both the infrastructure build and the coupons and all the other goodies they may (or may not) have in the pipeline. You've heard of businesses growing much too fast and then the bubble bursts (please recall back the 1990's for a reference). Where would we all be if SM were to plus up in that manner - we might be looking for a different, but not better, host for our photos and business. Not a goodness. To say nothing of the problems to be encountered when attempting to integrate and, even more so, deploy these two softwares at (nearly?) the same time. What a nightmare for everyone!
Are SM rolling out all the changes as quickly as we would like? H3!! no! But, are they rolling them out as SMARTLY as possbile? Given the complexities of the product(s); the vehicle being used (a web site, the best available at this time); where SM started from, size-wise; the need to keep the active site active; and a whole host of other restrictions and criteria I would have to say that SM is doing a stand-up job of meeting both our current business operational needs/requirements, addressing our future needs, and also meeting their need to roll out a working competitive feature set (gotta remember that SM is in business to continue being in business ).
Asking a company, any company, what's left to be developed before a product hits the street is just ..... well funny, silly, ... pick your favorite word. SM is no different from companies like MS, Apple, HP, Avon, or Starbucks. You don't call up the CEO of ANY of them and ask that question expecting an answer - well, not if you and I are sharing the same reality anyway.
Finally, there are a number of big features that SM has "announced" over the course of the preceeding year (or more) as "coming soon" without providing a target release date. Lots of reasons for the lack of a target release date (here are just a couple/few):
To keep the competition guessing,
To better manage customer expectations - if they promise "X" by Christmas and it rolls out 1 Jan, they have mud on their face and they have to respond to lots of angry "fan" mail. Not a goodness.
While I'm sure Andy (and the rest of the SM heros) have no problem with answering the mail, I would also like to suggest that answering the same question over and over and over again is a waste of time and resources that could be better put towards other support functions. Doncha think?
If you don't like the direction SM is moving or the rate at which they are moving - move on to another service that better meets your needs/expectations, if you can find one.
OK - end of soapbox, but I just had to get that off my chest.
Just occurred to me that the title for the thread is incorrect.
We really can't provide feedback on something that doesn't exist and/or we have had no opportunity to evaluate.
Other than our dissatisfaction that coupons still do not exist after years of persistent pleading.
Beetle, I know you're frustrated but this is uncalled for - this thread was created to solicit customer input and feedback, we asked for feedback on building the feature, and we've taken it - and we continue to take feedback for the feature - including somethings that have been added into v1 (developing now) and other stuff that's going to v2.
You're made your dissatisfaction known, over and again - and I'm sorry we've let you down. But we're really, really going to get back to work.... If you have new questions, or new issues, of course I'll address them.
@beetle8
I feel listened to, and have provided feedback (though I joined the thread quite late). Also, whenever I have asked a question, I have gotten quick responses.
Does anyone really think that SM isn't trying their best to get this done? Sometimes there are no shortcuts when you are trying to do something complex, and do it right. I wonder what some people on this thread would say if the coupons were released, and didn't work properly...
So I am sending some positive motivation to BigWebGuy to offset what must be his almost-daily reading here.
Asking a company, any company, what's left to be developed before a product hits the street is just ..... well funny, silly, ...
Andy claimed SM was so transparent and "everything " was out there for dissection, so I asked what was left to be done in order to form a "how long" opinion (ie in the next 3 months or longer) of my own. Turns out we have different definitions of what "transparent" means.
pick your favorite word. SM is no different from companies like MS, Apple, HP, Avon, or Starbucks. You don't call up the CEO of ANY of them and ask that question expecting an answer - well, not if you and I are sharing the same reality anyway.
That's because they have customer relations folks who would then talk to the engineering management staff to get you your answer.
Finally, there are a number of big features that SM has "announced" over the course of the preceeding year (or more) as "coming soon" without providing a target release date.
And how many of those 'big features' would materially impact a photog's ability to sell to their customer base?
Lots of reasons for the lack of a target release date (here are just a couple/few):
To keep the competition guessing,
To better manage customer expectations - if they promise "X" by Christmas and it rolls out 1 Jan, they have mud on their face and they have to respond to lots of angry "fan" mail. Not a goodness.
By not giving any timelines or even wide-range guestimates, they're not managing customer expectations very well, and this is how we get back to the recurring problem - what "soon" and "closer" mean. I went back and looked at when SM handled talking about dates.
June 2008 - Andy "We’re hopeful to implement coupons real soon" on the "pros" blog. (edited)
July 1 2008 - Andy "Not gonna give you a date but we're working on it right now and this is very important to us "
Sept 10, 2008 - Baldy related having to pulled BWG off coupons for the Bay Lab integration. No information about how much this would delay coupons.
I can understand SM not wanting to commit to a specific date, but the complete lack of guidance as to where things are is a serious customer management problem.
Since they don't want to give a specific date or quarter, they could say delivery was "more than 3 months" or "more than 6 months" out, and as things progress state when it's "less than 3 months" and then "waiting for the next maintenance window for final release".
Another possible scenario would be to list what needs to be done (gather requirements, create modules to do x, y, z..., internal testing, etc.) and then tick things off as they're done.
Either approach would would give people some idea of where things are so they can make their own business plans, as opposed to hoping it'll be released in the next week or month in time for their next big event because they've been told "soon" only to realize too late that their idea of what "soon" meant was completely different from what "soon" means when SM says it.
Based on what I've seen so far, barring SM providing some concrete guidance as to "how long", the best thing SM customers can do is assume this feature's eventual release is too far off in the future to help them with their near-term plans, and act accordingly.
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I'd also like to add on to what Tim mentioned in his response to your post. I think there's a fundamental difference here - Smugmug is NOT a software vendor for us - they're a Business Partner. You're post suggests we just buy their software and that's not the case. As another IT professional, I can state in my experience that business partners DO get release date information. Not as specific information as if the partners were footing the bill. But it is quite reasonable to speak in terms of quarters. Again, that's part of maintaining a business relationship which is completely different than vendor-to-customer relationship. If we were buying software off-the-shelf from Smugmug I would agree with your post. But our relationship with Smugmug is different than that. For example - Bay Photos is now a business partner with Smugmug. I would expect that if Bay were making critical changes that affected Smugmug's business that Smugmug would be given better information than "its a prioriity to us" and "we're working on it". Again, just another opinion from an IT professional
Maybe I'm just cynical, but....
Another Disclaimer: The following should not be construed as a slam, denigration, or disparagement of SmugMug. I love the service they provide - I believe them to the be best at what they do.
From Wikipedia (yeah, not always a really, really good souce .... but there it is FWIW)
Business partner is a term used to denote a commercial entity with which another commercial entity has some form of alliance. This relationship may be a highly contractual, exclusive bond in which both entities commit not to ally with third parties. Alternatively, it may be a very loose arrangement designed largely to impress customers and competitors with the size of the network the business partners belong to.
The meaning of the term is quite different from that implied in partnership, and it is because of the potential for confusion between the two that widespread use of 'business partner' has been discouraged at times in the past.
A business partner can be:
A supplier,
A customer,
A channel intermediary (such as an agent or reseller), or
A vendor of complementary offerings (for example, one party sells the hardware, while the other sells the software)
A service provider is an entity that provides services to other entities. Usually this refers to a business that provides subscription or web service to other businesses or individuals. Examples of these services include Internet access, Mobile phone operator, and web application hosting.
The SM sign up page uses the phrase "low yearly fee" with reference the the subscription we pay to maintain our SM accounts. Then, there's the "coupon code" that can be used to reduce your first year's fee.
Finally, when was the last time anyone outside the SM organization was able to significantly influence SM direction, product line, offerings, design, development, priorities, or schedule. The development of coupons is just one case in point - it is one of a very small list of features the pro photographers have been clammering, begging, and whining for. How many times has the development been bumped by higher SM priorities? Additionally, when was the last time they communicated, other than through the list of products they offer, with you about your product line. SM does, frequently, ask for comment and input as to the direction they should take in the future, but .... that kinda get's back to the point of this discussion, doesn't it.
It can be argued that it's hard to be involved when one doesn't receive the information one needs. So, just for the sake of aguement, let us assume that SM does owe us the sort of information indicated by other posts in this thread. Are they going to post business proprietary intellectual property and strategy in a public forum. Let's not be silly. So, that would mean this information would need to be communicated via a private transmission. There would need to be answered a couple or three questions:
With whom would such information be shared? Every account holder? How about just to Pro Account holders? Or just those who have expressed an interest and would like to "opt in?" Any way you slice it, this would quickly become an accounting nightmare.
Assuming policy has been set as to who is going to received the information - how is the further distribution of same to be controlled? Through the use of an NDA? Again, let's not be silly - how many, many pro account holders are their? How many of them really understand or are willing to learn the significance of signing an NDA? Can such an NDA be worded to be enforcable "for all time" or are they only be used to cover a specific time period? I don't know - INAL.
Now we have to determine how SM is to distribute the information. E-mail? Too little control - it's too easily forwarded. Mail - very expensive propositon.
And, the questions just keep going on to the point of being silly.
An aguement can be made that SM is both a business partner and a service provider. But, any way you cut it, they are in no way a partner (as in partnership) in my business in that I have little if any influence on their direction, their profits, or their losses (nor do they share in mine) and I suspect the same is true of all here.
Like I said, INAL, but it appears to me that any obligation SM has to account holders is quite limited. I'm not even certain they are obligated to provide a service suitable to business purposes.
It all comes down to how one defines terms such as service provider, business partner, and partnership. Into which category they best fit?
It all comes down to how one defines terms such as service provider, business partner, and partnership. Into which category they best fit?
Another way to look at it, if you're one of the people who wants Smugmug branding as limited as possible (such as not having Smugmug plastered on the shipping container, all over your website, etc.) then Smugmug is not a business partner of yours, they are just a service provider.
Another Disclaimer: The following should not be construed as a slam, denigration, or disparagement of SmugMug. I love the service they provide - I believe them to the be best at what they do.
From Wikipedia (yeah, not always a really, really good souce .... but there it is FWIW)
The SM sign up page uses the phrase "low yearly fee" with reference the the subscription we pay to maintain our SM accounts. Then, there's the "coupon code" that can be used to reduce your first year's fee.
Finally, when was the last time anyone outside the SM organization was able to significantly influence SM direction, product line, offerings, design, development, priorities, or schedule. The development of coupons is just one case in point - it is one of a very small list of features the pro photographers have been clammering, begging, and whining for. How many times has the development been bumped by higher SM priorities? Additionally, when was the last time they communicated, other than through the list of products they offer, with you about your product line. SM does, frequently, ask for comment and input as to the direction they should take in the future, but .... that kinda get's back to the point of this discussion, doesn't it.
It can be argued that it's hard to be involved when one doesn't receive the information one needs. So, just for the sake of aguement, let us assume that SM does owe us the sort of information indicated by other posts in this thread. Are they going to post business proprietary intellectual property and strategy in a public forum. Let's not be silly. So, that would mean this information would need to be communicated via a private transmission. There would need to be answered a couple or three questions:
With whom would such information be shared? Every account holder? How about just to Pro Account holders? Or just those who have expressed an interest and would like to "opt in?" Any way you slice it, this would quickly become an accounting nightmare.
Assuming policy has been set as to who is going to received the information - how is the further distribution of same to be controlled? Through the use of an NDA? Again, let's not be silly - how many, many pro account holders are their? How many of them really understand or are willing to learn the significance of signing an NDA? Can such an NDA be worded to be enforcable "for all time" or are they only be used to cover a specific time period? I don't know - INAL.
Now we have to determine how SM is to distribute the information. E-mail? Too little control - it's too easily forwarded. Mail - very expensive propositon.
And, the questions just keep going on to the point of being silly.
An aguement can be made that SM is both a business partner and a service provider. But, any way you cut it, they are in no way a partner (as in partnership) in my business in that I have little if any influence on their direction, their profits, or their losses (nor do they share in mine) and I suspect the same is true of all here.
Like I said, INAL, but it appears to me that any obligation SM has to account holders is quite limited. I'm not even certain they are obligated to provide a service suitable to business purposes.
It all comes down to how one defines terms such as service provider, business partner, and partnership. Into which category they best fit?
I am confused. What is the point of all this carping and complaining? Do you really think these distractions will help the product development team get the product out faster. Or, are you just trying to make them feel bad? Please help me with this. Enough is enough.
Comments
Keith Tharp.com - Champion Photo
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Quick question - that panel on the right looks nice for printing and giving to people. Is there an easy "print this coupon" feature, or is that for 2.0?
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
I hope this comes before December so I can use this rather than a month to month EM account.
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Frankly, sometimes I feel like a sucker who has been persuaded to stick around waiting for coupons instead of getting on with my business and Andy's posts only seem to serve as lulling letters.
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00954.htm
quoting Andy here:
I'm so sorry
Why don't we all get to work, okay
Because each of our business needs are different and SM is a solution trying the best to the best for everyone and fulfill its own financial goals, there will always be issues and problems. The new uploader has re-introduced an uploading issue for me I haven't had to deal with in years. I've even put $500 up of my own money for a developer to make an FTP to SM bridge to permanently solve my problem, but nothing. It's just something I have to live with because if I solve this problem by going with someone else, I create other problems that are solved by just using SM.
In the end, it comes down to the money, and if not having coupons is literally killing your business, then you've already been here too long. If it's not, then it's just another one of the annoyances that comes from using a product that isn't custom to your business. I waiting a long time for video, and was looking at other solutions, when SM finally introduced it. But I'm still waiting for watermarking on videos...just one of those tradeoffs...
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For me, watermarking isn't as badly needed as the speed of publishing, so I've just disabled saving videos from the gallery. It would take me even more time than SM to do the watermarking, and then I'd have to upload. That would put me well outside of my 72 hour publishing time frame.
I'm just waiting for the day when the processor power comes available enough that SM can provide video watermarking. I didn't think custom watermarks would come, but they did. I didn't think video would ever come, but it did.
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...or as I recall from 'The Man From Snowy River': "Have another beer, have two... broaden your mind!"
Just keep drinking the Kool Aid Cindy and tell your self that everything is great.
Sorry if the Lulling Letter link was not clear enough.
A lulling letter is "designed to lull the victims into a false sense of security, postpone their ultimate complaint to the authorities, and therefore make apprehension of the defendants less likely."
Now, tell me exactly how long this thread has been going on and then tell me if I am the crazy one for being upset or you are for being a happy camper. This thread is in the "Pro Sales Support" forum, no? I would think most pros would like to sell coupons and packages. Almost every pro I know uses them. So, I am not the only pro who is dissatisfied with the lack of progress. Why haven't I left? I am not sure. But, the incentive to stay is waning.
Back to work...
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I don't believe you're actually so astoundingly stupid as to believe that Smugmug is committing fraud, so I'm left to the conclusion that you're just a sad provocateur. Either way, you give us no reason to lend your posts any credence.
http://blog.timkphotography.com
We really can't provide feedback on something that doesn't exist and/or we have had no opportunity to evaluate.
Other than our dissatisfaction that coupons still do not exist after years of persistent pleading.
Keith Tharp.com - Champion Photo
Disclaimer: I am not SmugMug. Nor am I associated with SmugMug in any way other than as being a very satisfied customer (OK, so I've partaken of the koolaide - whatta yo' gonna do?
OK - I'll bite - You're crazy!
I am sooooo not understanding what everyone is complaining about!
:soapbox
Please perceive:
- So SmugMug (hereafter, SM) "announced" the pending arrival of coupons et al some time ago. They gave you warning so you could re-engineer your business to better make use of this feature. You would rather they just dump it in your lap as an feit accompli? (Is that even spelled right?)
- Software changes/development don't happen over-night. If they did, they would be worth about what they cost (costs being measured both in terms of time and the $$$ to pay for the infrastructure and people to bring it all together). Remember the quality triangle: cheap, quick, good. Pick any two, but you can't have all three; it just doesn't work that way.
- Priorities - Maybe SM could have re-arranged priorities to get the coupons out sooner. I don't know, I'm not privy to their business discussions/decisions. What I do know is that building on a foundation of sand is VERY, VERY, VERY expensive. It falls well within the category of "You can pay me now or ... pay me later." If SM were to have rolled out coupons, say, last fall before they had the infrastructure in place to properly support it ... well, where do you think we would be right now? Cussing and discussing the, probably much increased, down-times we would be experiencing because SM didn't (under this hypothetical scenario) get all their ducks lined up in the proper order.
- Hmmm ... well maybe SM could have hired on twice the number of sorcerers to handle both the infrastructure build and the coupons and all the other goodies they may (or may not) have in the pipeline. You've heard of businesses growing much too fast and then the bubble bursts (please recall back the 1990's for a reference). Where would we all be if SM were to plus up in that manner - we might be looking for a different, but not better, host for our photos and business. Not a goodness. To say nothing of the problems to be encountered when attempting to integrate and, even more so, deploy these two softwares at (nearly?) the same time. What a nightmare for everyone!
- Are SM rolling out all the changes as quickly as we would like? H3!! no! But, are they rolling them out as SMARTLY as possbile? Given the complexities of the product(s); the vehicle being used (a web site, the best available at this time); where SM started from, size-wise; the need to keep the active site active; and a whole host of other restrictions and criteria I would have to say that SM is doing a stand-up job of meeting both our current business operational needs/requirements, addressing our future needs, and also meeting their need to roll out a working competitive feature set (gotta remember that SM is in business to continue being in business
).
- Asking a company, any company, what's left to be developed before a product hits the street is just ..... well funny, silly, ... pick your favorite word. SM is no different from companies like MS, Apple, HP, Avon, or Starbucks. You don't call up the CEO of ANY of them and ask that question expecting an answer - well, not if you and I are sharing the same reality anyway.
- Finally, there are a number of big features that SM has "announced" over the course of the preceeding year (or more) as "coming soon" without providing a target release date. Lots of reasons for the lack of a target release date (here are just a couple/few):
- To keep the competition guessing,
- To better manage customer expectations - if they promise "X" by Christmas and it rolls out 1 Jan, they have mud on their face and they have to respond to lots of angry "fan" mail. Not a goodness.
- While I'm sure Andy (and the rest of the SM heros) have no problem with answering the mail, I would also like to suggest that answering the same question over and over and over again is a waste of time and resources that could be better put towards other support functions. Doncha think?
If you don't like the direction SM is moving or the rate at which they are moving - move on to another service that better meets your needs/expectations, if you can find one.OK - end of soapbox, but I just had to get that off my chest.
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You're made your dissatisfaction known, over and again - and I'm sorry we've let you down. But we're really, really going to get back to work.... If you have new questions, or new issues, of course I'll address them.
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I feel listened to, and have provided feedback (though I joined the thread quite late). Also, whenever I have asked a question, I have gotten quick responses.
Does anyone really think that SM isn't trying their best to get this done? Sometimes there are no shortcuts when you are trying to do something complex, and do it right. I wonder what some people on this thread would say if the coupons were released, and didn't work properly...
So I am sending some positive motivation to BigWebGuy to offset what must be his almost-daily reading here.
Oliver
Andy claimed SM was so transparent and "everything " was out there for dissection, so I asked what was left to be done in order to form a "how long" opinion (ie in the next 3 months or longer) of my own. Turns out we have different definitions of what "transparent" means.
That's because they have customer relations folks who would then talk to the engineering management staff to get you your answer.
And how many of those 'big features' would materially impact a photog's ability to sell to their customer base?
By not giving any timelines or even wide-range guestimates, they're not managing customer expectations very well, and this is how we get back to the recurring problem - what "soon" and "closer" mean. I went back and looked at when SM handled talking about dates.
June 2008 - Andy "We’re hopeful to implement coupons real soon" on the "pros" blog. (edited)
July 1 2008 - Andy "Not gonna give you a date but we're working on it right now and this is very important to us
Sept 10, 2008 - Baldy related having to pulled BWG off coupons for the Bay Lab integration. No information about how much this would delay coupons.
Feb 2009 - Andy "much closer".
Mar 2009 - BWG "coupons are in active development folks. we know how important it is to everyone." and posts a sample coupon. Andy "They're getting closer every day."
May 2009 - Baldy relates a few business decisions he made that affected how things are going.
Aug 22, 2009 - Andy "We're almost done".
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I can understand SM not wanting to commit to a specific date, but the complete lack of guidance as to where things are is a serious customer management problem.
Since they don't want to give a specific date or quarter, they could say delivery was "more than 3 months" or "more than 6 months" out, and as things progress state when it's "less than 3 months" and then "waiting for the next maintenance window for final release".
Another possible scenario would be to list what needs to be done (gather requirements, create modules to do x, y, z..., internal testing, etc.) and then tick things off as they're done.
Either approach would would give people some idea of where things are so they can make their own business plans, as opposed to hoping it'll be released in the next week or month in time for their next big event because they've been told "soon" only to realize too late that their idea of what "soon" meant was completely different from what "soon" means when SM says it.
Based on what I've seen so far, barring SM providing some concrete guidance as to "how long", the best thing SM customers can do is assume this feature's eventual release is too far off in the future to help them with their near-term plans, and act accordingly.
I'd also like to add on to what Tim mentioned in his response to your post. I think there's a fundamental difference here - Smugmug is NOT a software vendor for us - they're a Business Partner. You're post suggests we just buy their software and that's not the case. As another IT professional, I can state in my experience that business partners DO get release date information. Not as specific information as if the partners were footing the bill. But it is quite reasonable to speak in terms of quarters. Again, that's part of maintaining a business relationship which is completely different than vendor-to-customer relationship. If we were buying software off-the-shelf from Smugmug I would agree with your post. But our relationship with Smugmug is different than that. For example - Bay Photos is now a business partner with Smugmug. I would expect that if Bay were making critical changes that affected Smugmug's business that Smugmug would be given better information than "its a prioriity to us" and "we're working on it". Again, just another opinion from an IT professional
Another Disclaimer: The following should not be construed as a slam, denigration, or disparagement of SmugMug. I love the service they provide - I believe them to the be best at what they do.
From Wikipedia (yeah, not always a really, really good souce .... but there it is FWIW) Now, check out Service Provider The SM sign up page uses the phrase "low yearly fee" with reference the the subscription we pay to maintain our SM accounts. Then, there's the "coupon code" that can be used to reduce your first year's fee.
Finally, when was the last time anyone outside the SM organization was able to significantly influence SM direction, product line, offerings, design, development, priorities, or schedule. The development of coupons is just one case in point - it is one of a very small list of features the pro photographers have been clammering, begging, and whining for. How many times has the development been bumped by higher SM priorities? Additionally, when was the last time they communicated, other than through the list of products they offer, with you about your product line. SM does, frequently, ask for comment and input as to the direction they should take in the future, but .... that kinda get's back to the point of this discussion, doesn't it.
It can be argued that it's hard to be involved when one doesn't receive the information one needs. So, just for the sake of aguement, let us assume that SM does owe us the sort of information indicated by other posts in this thread. Are they going to post business proprietary intellectual property and strategy in a public forum. Let's not be silly. So, that would mean this information would need to be communicated via a private transmission. There would need to be answered a couple or three questions:
- With whom would such information be shared? Every account holder? How about just to Pro Account holders? Or just those who have expressed an interest and would like to "opt in?" Any way you slice it, this would quickly become an accounting nightmare.
- Assuming policy has been set as to who is going to received the information - how is the further distribution of same to be controlled? Through the use of an NDA? Again, let's not be silly - how many, many pro account holders are their? How many of them really understand or are willing to learn the significance of signing an NDA? Can such an NDA be worded to be enforcable "for all time" or are they only be used to cover a specific time period? I don't know - INAL.
- Now we have to determine how SM is to distribute the information. E-mail? Too little control - it's too easily forwarded. Mail - very expensive propositon.
- And, the questions just keep going on to the point of being silly.
An aguement can be made that SM is both a business partner and a service provider. But, any way you cut it, they are in no way a partner (as in partnership) in my business in that I have little if any influence on their direction, their profits, or their losses (nor do they share in mine) and I suspect the same is true of all here.Like I said, INAL, but it appears to me that any obligation SM has to account holders is quite limited. I'm not even certain they are obligated to provide a service suitable to business purposes.
It all comes down to how one defines terms such as service provider, business partner, and partnership. Into which category they best fit?
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